# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 124
### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2461 "2022-03-15T23:15:05Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> This is a fantastic project. People are documenting the war with their phones.
Vietnam was the first television war. It’s looking like this is the first internet war. Who knows, perhaps videos taken by ordinary people of their lives being destroyed sent to other ordinary people might make war difficult to prosecute by the jingoists.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2022, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2462 "2022-03-15T23:22:16Z")
And for show. I think Russia generally holds its own military exercises in the same area at the same time…just by coincidence. This year though? I doubt they can be bothered. They have some other stuff on their plate that seems to be taking all their concentration.
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### Author:  [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2463 "2022-03-15T23:31:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> And speaking of Syrian troops; How exactly do they get to the battlefield in Ukraine with equipment? Does Syria have enough air power to project an army that far, without overflying Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania? Certainly they can’t get heavy machinery into Ukraine in the short term. And how are their own logistics and supply chains going to be managed, if the Russians can’t handle that for their own troops? Enough food and ammunition for weeks?
Came here to write something similar to that, but you did it very well. The Syrian Air Force (per Wikipedia) has a couple of IL-76’s (comparable to C141/C17 planes in the US inventory, and the Syrian Airlines have three Airbuses, 2 A340’s and an A320). So they could probably move 700 or so men, but with minimal equipment and support. So the Russians would have to move most of them, and I have some doubts that the Turks want a bunch of Russian Air Force Transports crossing their borders, so they’d have to go the longer way to get there.
By ship (which is the best way to move large quantities of men and material)? OK, providing you can find enough ships, just go right on through the Dardenelles and wave at Istanbul as you pass by…ah, no, I can’t see that.
Driving (if not through Turkey) means a convoy via Northern Iraq (Kurdish folk live around there), Iran, Azerbaijan and into Chechnya. Don’t see any problem with that, do you? {/Sarcasm}
So a few hundred Syrians, unsupported and with nothing but small arms, might make an appearance, but 16,000? I’ll believe it when you show me how.
“Amateurs study tactics; Professionals study logistics.”
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2464 "2022-03-15T23:32:41Z")
For those who hadn’t seen this one … touching:
> **[94 violinists play alongside young Ukrainian soloist stuck inside a bomb shelter](https://www.classicfm.com/artists/london-symphony-orchestra/violinists-virtual-ukraine-shelter-performance/)**
>
> The young Ukrainian violinist had to film in between explosions because he could not hear himself play.
[Violins is _always_ at least part of the answer]
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2465 "2022-03-16T00:17:37Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> Putin to pull out
Somehow, in a post about Donnie and Vlad, this phrase gives me the willies.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2466 "2022-03-16T00:18:48Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> Hell, even the Israeli volunteers make a bit more sense (though that’s another head-scratcher) than Indian volunteers.
About one million Soviet Jews (and Jew-adjacents) immigrated to Israel after the U.S.S.R. collapsed. Many of them came from Ukraine, and some of those still have family there or just feel a connection to the country.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2467 "2022-03-16T01:19:11Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> For those who hadn’t seen this one … touching
Touhing my ass. I literally cried.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2468 "2022-03-16T01:23:19Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> > [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
> >
> > Putin to pull out
>
> Somehow, in a post about Donnie and Vlad, this phrase gives me the willies.
‘Putin to pull out before he comes to a bad end.’ 😉
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2469 "2022-03-16T01:27:11Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> Touching my ass. I literally cried.
Are we not doing “Phrasing!” any more?
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2470 "2022-03-16T01:29:38Z")
We are, again, reminded of the estimable value – and flexibility – of punctuation.
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### Author:  [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2471 "2022-03-16T01:41:02Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> It’s not realistic for there to be no cities in orange
The chart isn’t predictive. Had the chart been made a month ago, before the war, it would show no cities in orange because none had been captured.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2472 "2022-03-16T01:56:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> About one million Soviet Jews (and Jew-adjacents) immigrated to Israel after the U.S.S.R. collapsed. Many of them came from Ukraine, and some of those still have family there or just feel a connection to the country.
I didn’t know that. Thanks for the info…makes a hell of a lot more sense now!
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2473 "2022-03-16T01:56:37Z")
I could have been 'Dog the Bridge Builder
I could have been 'Dog the Pier Builder
I could have been 'Dog the House Builder
But you forget _one_ comma…
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2474 "2022-03-16T03:02:23Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> For those who hadn’t seen this one … touching:
Hey Putin, while you’re begging China for handouts because you can’t organize a sock wash the Ukrainians have organized a world concert in the middle of a war.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2475 "2022-03-16T03:04:45Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if Ukraine, Czech Republic, Poland and Slovenia form an alliance. Russia is a threat to all of Eastern Europe.
Traveling into a war zone is a strong diplomatic statement. Risky, but I guess Russia didn’t want to escalate by attacking the train.
Zelenskiy said later that Ukraine knows its true friends.
Guardian live blog
> [@](#):
>
> The prime ministers of the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovenia arrived in Kyiv earlier on Tuesday in a show of support for Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy, who briefed them on the war with [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia).
>
> Polish prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki and deputy prime minister Jarosław Kaczyński, their Czech counterpart Petr Fiala and Slovenia’s Janez Janša made the perilous train journey to Kyiv which is close to being encircled by Russian forces. They are the first western visitors to the city since the war began three weeks ago.
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### Author:  [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2476 "2022-03-16T03:11:55Z")
So what happens when Syrians land in Russia and the -20 degree air hits them? It doesn’t matter if they’re wearing the same cold-weather gear as the Russians. They will not be able to hack it.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2477 "2022-03-16T03:18:12Z")
Melitipol has a new mayor.
The old one was last seen being dragged away with his head in a sack:
> **[Ukraine war: Protests after Melitopol mayor Ivan Fedorov is 'kidnapped' by...](https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-protests-after-melitopol-mayor-ivan-fedorov-is-kidnapped-by-russian-forces-12564318)**
>
> President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has said the "abduction" of Ivan Fedorov in Melitopol in southeastern Ukraine was an attempt to bring the city "to its knees".
The new mayor is a former city councillor, said to have been installed by the Russian invaders.
Her inaugeral statement:
> [@](#):
>
> In a televised statement, Ms Danilchenko said: "Esteemed residents of the town of Melitopol and Melitopol distict…
>
> "Our main task now is to adapt all the mechanisms to the new reality so that we can begin to live in a new way as soon as possible.
>
> "Despite all our efforts, there are still people in the town who try to destabilise the situation, who spur you on to commit extremist acts.
>
> “I do urge you, please, be sensible and do not fall for these provocations.”
Wonder how long she will last?
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2478 "2022-03-16T03:21:45Z")
She probably has a Chechen security detail.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2479 "2022-03-16T03:25:03Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#):
>
> So what happens when Syrians land in Russia and the -20 degree air hits them? It doesn’t matter if they’re wearing the same cold-weather gear as the Russians. They will not be able to hack it.
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCmp2qbrZUQ&t=0m30s)
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2022, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2480 "2022-03-16T04:35:20Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> But in say… Vietnam, Iraq (the insurgency stage) or Afghanistan, what were those goals and conditions? AFAIK those were absolutely never clearly articulated in a way that the military could work toward fulfilling.
>
> I’d argue that the US military did indeed win, and win big in all three, when there was some kind of clear military goal in mind- destroy the Iraqi Army, defeat the NVA in the Tet Offensive, remove the Taliban from power.
>
> But when they were pushed into “Occupy Iraq and… help the Iraqis build a state”, things became dramatically more vague and exponentially harder to determine what winning and losing were.
>
> You’re absolutely right in that in a democratic society, a lot of that vagueness falls right at the feet of the electorate and politicians’ interpretation of its will as time progresses.
Consider my stance a reaction to the notion that the military was at best blameless or at worst saw defeat snatched from the jaws of victory as a result of the machinations of inept civilian leadership.
No doubt civilian leadership _was_ inept in both Vietnam and Iraq (as well as elsewhere), but let’s not forget that (1) the most senior military officers are also important advisers to civilian leadership when it comes to military and defense matters and (2) even military officers in the actual theater of war have planning and reporting responsibilities.
In Vietnam, the notion that the military could have won “if only” is something I push back on because it goes too far. It presumes the military _could have won_. I do not grant that. More to the point, “could have won” leave room to infer that the problem with that particular war was that it was _wrongly fought_. That’s the wrong lesson in my book. The lesson we should all walk away with from that war is not that it was fought wrong, but that it was _wrong to fight_. There were very good reasons that half-sane civilian leaders insisted the military fight the war with one hand tied behind its back. Fully sane civilian leaders would have gone a step further and kept the military out of the fight altogether.
Iraq has similar issues, plus the fact that General Franks, as CENTCOM during the invasion and its leadup, totally failed to account for anything but the military aspects of the campaign. He did not plan, or at least he did not see to it that someone else planned, to achieve the follow-on conditions necessary to ensure a lasting victory in the aftermath of the invasion. Whether it was his proper role, as a military leader, to plan out reconstruction and stability operations requiring multiagency efforts is debatable. What is _not_ debatable is that he at least had a duty to ensure that _someone_, even if just someone working for the Department of State for example, had that for action and that the various phases of the campaign fit together. Had he and other senior military officers done that, he might have come to suspect that a lasting victory in Iraq would be impossible, or at least require a much longer commitment than the invasion by itself might have implied, and thus better exercised his _advisory_ role to civilian leaders. Had civilian leaders nevertheless directed the invasion continue, then he would have found himself in the position to consider whether or not his duty to the nation was to resign in protest or to “just follow orders.”
Bringing it back around to the main point, the impossibility of victory in a war, once waged, by no means supports the proposition that the war (ultimately lost) was nevertheless a military victory. So if Russia doesn’t achieve its aims (whatever they are) in Ukraine… it will have been militarily defeated, whether or not its military ever could have won.
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