# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2841 "2022-03-20T19:53:25Z")
I did not know that. Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2842 "2022-03-20T20:03:02Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > NATO participation in the war might be > > But realistically, if NATO participated and confined its operations to Ukrainian battlespace, it would never be an existential threat to Russia, regardless of how Putin defines things. Indeed there is not a single thing in this scenario that is an existential threat to Russia. _We_ wouldn’t think so; but sometimes I think there is absolutely no overestimating the paranoia that seems to be a Russian national characteristic. “Safety” is defined as having the overwhelming power to annihilate any possible threat, and any resistance to that power is seen as an implicit attack. It’s like having to interact with a deeply neurotic person, whose projected fears you have to take into account no matter how unrealistic they are. The thing is, by Russian standards of discourse Putin may actually sincerely believe that the advance into Ukraine is “defending” Russia(!) ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2843 "2022-03-20T20:11:10Z")
This is interesting. > **[An elite Ukrainian drone unit exploits the cover of night to destroy Russian...](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukrainian-drone-unit-strikes-russian-targets-while-they-sleep-the-times-2022-3)** > > The Aerorozvidka drone unit has destroyed dozens of "priority targets" including Russian tanks, command trucks, and other vehicles, The Times reports. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2844 "2022-03-20T20:11:24Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Does any nuclear power who rattles its sabres get to do whatever it wants, no matter how evil or horrific Well, no, there are at least some limits. In the current example, I don’t actually expect Russia to invade a current member of NATO, because then NATO would fight back. You can justify using nukes when your own country is being invaded, but it’s harder to justify using nukes if you’re the one doing the invading, and you’re just getting your ass kicked. Even if Putin were to invade, say, Poland, the absolutely epic curb-stomping the NATO forces would dole out to the invading forces would be very unlikely to trigger a nuclear war. If we were dumb enough to counter-invade Russia, though, all bets are off. So basically, Putin can do pretty much whatever he wants to do, right up to the edge of the Polish border. Which admittedly sucks for everyone else on the wrong side of that border, but that’s the way the world is at the current moment. This is also why so many countries wanted to join NATO before the shit hit the fan. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2845 "2022-03-20T20:23:59Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > You can justify using nukes when your own country is being invaded, but it’s harder to justify using nukes if you’re the one doing the invading, and you’re just getting your ass kicked. Why does Putin need to justify using nukes to anyone but himself? Do you think the consequences would be different if he came up with a good reason? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2846 "2022-03-20T20:28:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why does Putin need to justify using nukes to anyone but himself? Do you think the consequences would be different if he came up with a good reason? Because The Button is just a bit of imagery. Putin by himself can’t do much more than any other person. He has power because he has people around him who ultimately agree to do the things he orders them to do, for whatever reasons they may have. And for those people, “Nuke Washington because the US army is on the outskirts of Moscow!” is a bit different than “Nuke Washington because I screwed up sending Spetsnaz into Poland!” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2847 "2022-03-20T20:30:27Z")
So the future of the free world depends on the morality of the Russian chain of command? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2848 "2022-03-20T20:31:25Z")
And the american and to a lesser extent the Chinese one, have you been asleep since August 6, 1945? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2849 "2022-03-20T21:04:48Z")
Latest campaign assessment from the Institute for the Study of War: > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-20)** > > The Ukrainian General Staff reported for the first time that the Kremlin is preparing its population for a “long war” in Ukraine and implementing increasingly draconian mobilization measures. The General Staff reported the Russian military... ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2850 "2022-03-20T21:21:15Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > > [@velomont](#): > > > > if NATO participated and confined its operations to Ukrainian battlespace, it would never be an existential threat to Russia, regardless of how Putin defines things. Indeed there is not a single thing in this scenario that is an existential threat to Russia. > > _We_ wouldn’t think so; but sometimes I think there is absolutely no overestimating the paranoia that seems to be a Russian national characteristic. “Safety” is defined as having the overwhelming power to annihilate any possible threat, and any resistance to that power is seen as an implicit attack. It’s like having to interact with a deeply neurotic person, whose projected fears you have to take into account no matter how unrealistic they are. Yeah that’s the rub – to Putin, there _is_ an “existential threat” (just to his power, we’d say? _l’Etat, c’est moi_, y’know). And the POV of Putinists and Russian hard-nationalists seems to be that controlling their rightful “sphere of influence” around their vicinity is existentially essential to Russia being Russia. A lot of the power circles in Moscow still fear not knowing what happens to them under whatever replaces Putin, more that they fear what may happen under Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2851 "2022-03-20T22:36:04Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Russia needs to consider what they’ll acquire if they eventually win. > > We’ve already discussed a insurgency that will fight for many years. > > There’s also the economic cost of a bombed out country. The economy will be ruined. Keeping the country running will cost a lot for years. There would have to be some rebuilding of infrastructure. You’re assuming that Russia has any interest whatsoever in “rebuilding” anything. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So the future of the free world depends on the morality of the Russian chain of command? No, the future of the _entire_ world potentially depends on the morality of the Russian chain of command. Because a strategic nuclear war is going to frack up the world for absolutely everyone. It’s also depends on the morality of the chain of command of the US and China as well. Lesser nuclear powers, with only a few or even a few dozen nukes, maybe not so much… an attack by them _might_ not result in global nuclear war - but any lesser power attempting that will be turned in glass craters by the bigger powers. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2852 "2022-03-20T22:42:50Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In 1945, his book _Up Front_ was published which featured both his cartoons and some observations he made of the war. My dad had this book. He probably bought it new when it was published in 1945. I remember reading it as a kid…with a lot of it probably going over my head. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2853 "2022-03-20T23:18:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So the future of the free world depends on the morality of the Russian chain of command? Not so much the morality _per se_, but rather the common sense and the naked self-interest. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2854 "2022-03-20T23:29:22Z")
What is the life expectancy of someone in the Russian chain of command who defies the will of Putin? Reports of Chechen kill squads shooting deserters puts a whole new spin on self interest. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2855 "2022-03-20T23:55:53Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > > > So the future of the free world depends on the morality of the Russian chain of command? > > Not so much the morality _per se_ , but rather the common sense and the naked self-interest. Yes, this. Framing it as “morality” confuses the issue. It’s more a matter of pragmatism. You have to ask, “What are these people willing to die for? What are they willing for _all their friends and family_ to die for?” Die to save your country from an invading army? Yeah, sure, probably. Die to protect the ego of some tyrant? Maybe not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2022, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2856 "2022-03-20T23:59:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What is the life expectancy of someone in the Russian chain of command who defies the will of Putin? Reports of Chechen kill squads shooting deserters puts a whole new spin on self interest. It’s a bit of a balancing act. Use the death squads enough to keep people in line, but not so much that the death squads themselves start thinking they might be next. Lots of tyrants in history have screwed up that balance and paid the price. We’ve already seen Putin arresting people from his intelligence and security services. I’m sure that everyone who just moved up a rank because of that is both thrilled and scared. The real question is how much of each? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2857 "2022-03-21T00:01:37Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I’m sure that everyone who just moved up a rank because of that is both thrilled and scared. Klingon promotion does have its drawbacks. Let’s just hope whoever has Putin in his sights is a little saner. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2858 "2022-03-21T00:05:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Let’s just hope whoever has Putin in his sights is a little saner. Job #1 for any replacement is going to have to be “Please stop the sanctions! I need to look good to all the other Russians!” Hopefully that means they’ll at least act sane for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2859 "2022-03-21T00:25:47Z")
In the mega-hypocrisy category: > [@](#): > > Russia called on Ukrainian forces in Mariupol to lay down their arms, saying a “terrible humanitarian catastrophe” was unfolding. Left unsaid: “Because of our shelling, our missiles, our artillery, our troops…” > **[Ukraine rejects Russia's demand to surrender besieged Mariupol | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-war-march20-1.6391321)** > > Russia demanded that Ukrainians in the besieged port city of Mariupol lay down their arms Monday in exchange for safe passage out of town, but Ukraine rejected the offer. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2860 "2022-03-21T00:33:36Z")
Taking a page from Henry V, perhaps? (Referring to Henry’s speech before the surrender of Harfluer where, as the [sparknotes](https://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/henryv/section6/) summary aptly describes, “King Henry urges the surrender of Harfleur with the same complex, morally shaky rhetoric that we see in earlier scenes.”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=144)