# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 150
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2981 "2022-03-22T05:02:13Z")
I’ve read the Russian pilots were a game changer in Korea. They challenged US pilots. It would be similar to US pilots flying jets in Ukraine. Putin’s reaction might be different from Truman. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2982 "2022-03-22T05:19:42Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > US pilots flying jets in Ukraine. [This article](https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ukraine-no-fly-zone-would-be-ineffective-dangerous-and-gift-putin), by a world-class expert on airpower, has been posted before. He explains why that would be a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2983 "2022-03-22T05:27:30Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > He told me about several pretty nasty battles up with the White Russian (Cossacks) infantry. Well, that is a bit of a muddle. White Russians are from White Russia, which is, it is right there in the name, Belarus (“belii” is the Russian word “white”). Cossacks, on the other hand, are from, you guessed it, Kazakstan. Belarus borders on Poland and the Balkans, Kazakstan borders on China and the Caspian puddle. I mean, when I was much younger, I would have had no idea that it made no sense (both of those countries were part of the Soviet Union), but it is good to learn of different peoples and their cultures – and, you know, try to respect them, within reason. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2984 "2022-03-22T05:44:06Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Cossacks, on the other hand, are from, you guessed it, Kazakstan. Ukraine also has a certain amount of Cossack heritage. It’s even mentioned in the [Ukraine national anthem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHzHlSLhtmM). ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2985 "2022-03-22T06:04:49Z")
White Russian is also used to describe the [anti-communist faction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_movement) in the Russian Civil War, as well as the [émigrés](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_%C3%A9migr%C3%A9) who left Russia following the red communist victory. It’s also a [cocktail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Russian_(cocktail)). The Cossacks originated in Ukraine: > [@](#): > > Early “Proto-Cossack” groups are generally reported to have come into existence within what is now Ukraine in the 13th century as the influence of Cumans grew weaker, although some have ascribed their origins to as early as the mid-8th century. Some historians suggest that the Cossack people were of mixed ethnic origin, descending from Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Turks, Tatars, and others who settled or passed through the vast Steppe. Some Turkologists, however, argue that Cossacks are descendants of the native Cumans of Ukraine, who had lived there long before the Mongol invasion. > **[Cossacks | Early history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks#Early_history)** > > It is unclear when people other than the Brodnici and Berladnici (which had a Romanian origin with large Slavic influences) began to settle in the lower reaches of major rivers such as the Don and the Dnieper after the demise of the Khazars. Their arrival was probably not before the 13th century, when the Mongols broke the power of the Cumans, who had assimilated the previous population on that territory. It is known that new settlers inherited a lifestyle that long pre-dated their presence, inc... In the context of **JaneDoe42** ’s story, Belarusian Cossacks is plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2986 "2022-03-22T06:30:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Cossacks, on the other hand, are from, you guessed it, Kazakstan. Same root, different origin. The Kazakhs originated in a political fission from the Uzbeks in the 15th century, with a mobile pastoral section of that state fucking off for new horizons. The Cossacks formed from what was eventually a polyglot admixture of people in the border country between firm Lithuanian control and the Crimean Khanate. Likely they first started as autonomous Turkic mercenary borderers established in a chain of fortifications on the right bank of the Dnieper built after 1412 by the expanding Lithuanians. As noted some Cossacks were a major component of the anti-Bolshevik White Movement - as with the [Don Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Army). It was drawn substantially from Don Cossacks from, you guessed it, the modern day disputed Donbas region. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2987 "2022-03-22T06:59:54Z")
All things old are eventually new again 😃. I just knew I had talked about this before: > [@Caucasion Chinese Citizens?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caucasion-chinese-citizens/275969/43): > > As JM noted it is in essence the same word for two distinct groups. The Cossacks originated as Tatar mercenaries called ( what else ) Kazaks, ‘free adventurers’ that were used to garrison forts along the Dnieper by the Lithuanian Grand Dukes from the early 15th century. To these were added various fugitive peasants and outlaws and they soon morphed into a distinct ( and eventually largely Slavic ) community that largely adopted the steppe habits of of their Tatar antecedents and neighbors. As… ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2988 "2022-03-22T07:03:15Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > In the context of **JaneDoe42** ’s story, Belarusian Cossacks is plausible. Her story, or rather, her father’s story, is that he was involved in infantry combat with Russian soldiers during the Korean War. At first I didn’t believe it - I assumed she meant that he had fought _against_ Russians, i.e. Soviets, in Korea, which as far as I know did not happen. But as I thought about it, maybe she’s saying her father fought _alongside_ “White Russians”, not under the flag of Russia but perhaps one of the European countries that sent troops to that conflict? France, for instance, which is listed as one of the allies of the South Korean/US side during the Korean War, may have had Russian emigres with anti-Communist leanings in its Foreign Legion, or some White Russian troops may have volunteered to serve South Korea directly. This is all speculation on my part, but it doesn’t seem that implausible. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2989 "2022-03-22T07:24:00Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > All things old are eventually new again 😃. I just knew I had talked about this before: > > [Caucasion Chinese Citizens? - #43 by Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caucasion-chinese-citizens/275969/43) Great post! > [@Lamoral](#): > > Her story, or rather, her father’s story, is that he was involved in infantry combat with Russian soldiers during the Korean War. > > At first I didn’t believe it - I assumed she meant that he had fought _against_ Russians, i.e. Soviets, in Korea, which as far as I know did not happen. Yeah, it looks like it was just aircraft pilots that were directly participating from the Soviets. > **[Soviet Union in the Korean War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_the_Korean_War)** > > Though not officially a belligerent during the Korean War (1950–1953), the Soviet Union played a significant, covert role in the conflict. It provided material and medical services, as well as Soviet pilots and aircraft, most notably MiG-15 fighter jets, to aid the North Korean-Chinese forces against the South Korean-United Nations Forces. Joseph Stalin had final decision-making power and several times demanded North Korea postpone action, until he and Mao Zedong both gave their final approval ... There was an [HMS _Cossack_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Cossack_(R57)) involved in the Korean War, though. The “white Russian Cossacks” could also have been in the US Army as sons of white Russian émigrés. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2990 "2022-03-22T07:33:38Z")
[![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOby1obXIAEIbff?format=jpg&name=small) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOby1obXIAEIbff?format=jpg&name=small) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2991 "2022-03-22T07:40:41Z")
Caucasians, at least historically, do not all necessarily love Russia so much. Millions of people were wiped out in the 19th-century Caucasian Wars, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2992 "2022-03-22T07:54:32Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Ukrainians were attacked for no reason and they’re being murdered under thousands of pounds of concrete with their children at their sides. That could be me and those could be my children. Taking knowing risks to defend them is taking a knowing risk to defend myself. It could all go to hell but it is unlikely and it is worth it. Well said, and worth repeating. I completely agree. For the millions of Ukrainians in Canada, the US, and elsewhere, if their parents or grandparents had not made the courageous decision to emigrate to the New World in pursuit of a better life, that _ **would** _ be them. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2993 "2022-03-22T07:57:39Z")
Really excellent and balanced video analysing the current situation in detail, including China and the larger picture. Worth watching. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/EOlkW9WvNYA/maxresdefault.jpg "War stagnation signals Ukraine is fighting for full stakes? Day 25.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOlkW9WvNYA) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2994 "2022-03-22T09:41:49Z")
Ukraine say they have retaken Makariv, west of Kyiv. > **[March 22, 2022 Russia-Ukraine news](https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-22-22/h_d27d03170b824b04a74f2b2c70782f30)** > > Ukrainian and Mariupol authorities have rejected an ultimatum to surrender the besieged city to Russian forces. Follow here for live news updates. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2995 "2022-03-22T09:59:11Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Maybe this is a minority opinion - and I have no credentials to back it up beyond a layman’s understanding of the conflict and my own intuition - but I can’t still can’t see how sending military aid to Ukraine is going to do anything but prolong the conflict and push Russia closer and closer to escalating with more powerful bombings and eventually tactical nuclear weapons. This is not a matter of other people forcing the Ukrainians to fight - they’re choosing to do that of their own accord. If the Ukrainians want to keep fighting who are we to tell them to stop? This whole shit-show started over whether or not Ukraine should be a sovereign nation. > [@Lamoral](#): > > Maybe I’m just jaded by 20 years of America being involved in seemingly-pointless wars and the “defense” industry profiting from it Consider that we’re seeing what those “seemingly-pointless wars” look like from the other side. > [@Lamoral](#): > > I can’t help but wonder if there’s an impetus here from Western arms manufacturers leaning on NATO leaders to continue the conflict instead of pushing for more progress with the negotiations (which would mean that Ukraine would have to make some concessions and Putin might look like he won a victory - but what’s the alternative exactly?) The concessions Putin is asking for means Ukraine will no longer exist as a nation and its leader will be subjected to summary execution or _maybe_ show trials then execution. Putin really shows zero signs he wants to negotiate and it takes two parties to make peace. > [@Lamoral](#): > > I mean that - what is the alternative? A long, protracted struggle - just like in Iraq and Afghanistan. > [@Lamoral](#): > > The diplomatic negotiations have received FAR less media coverage than the “kinetic” part of the conflict, and it’s unclear to me exactly how the process works or what each side’s diplomats might be asking for that the public doesn’t know about. That’s because diplomacy doesn’t sell cornflakes as well - people in a room talking or even arguing is not as eye-catching or dramatic as dead bodies and shattered buildings. Also, diplomacy has failed in this case. The Russians have not been serious about negotiating an end to this and without Russia wanting peace there will be no peace. Also, some sorts of negotiating and diplomacy need privacy. That doesn’t jibe well with current calls for transparency in government, I know, but the last thing delicate negotiations need is the media and the public taking sound bites out of context and whipping up a frenzy. > [@Lamoral](#): > > I guess I just don’t see a scenario where Putin thinks, “I’ve poured enough money and troops into this, it’s going badly, I should just cut my losses and accept defeat.” He seems to have too big of an ego and Czar complex to settle for that kind of humiliation. Eventually, Russia will simply _not be able_ to continue bleeding blood and treasure. Or maybe Putin will be deposed from within. No war lasts forever, it just seems that way. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m not sure she really fully grasped what the world would look like afterwards, but she really expressed that she didn’t care because “I’ve had a good life”. The moderator was a bit stunned by this sort of comment. Since a lot of people are convinced they would die instantly in a nuclear exchange (and not a few of them are likely absolutely correct in that assessment) they won’t have to worry about the consequences or how the world looks afterward. > [@Lamoral](#): > > I understand what you’re saying, but there’s been horrific atrocities committed all around the world within our lives and the US/NATO did not intervene, and that was when the bad guys _didn’t_ have nuclear bombs. Why is this specific situation so much more important? The people being slaughtered look like us. By “us” I mean the majority of the people in Europe and the US. A cynical position I know, and not one I personally agree with, but I think it’s the reality. > [@scabpicker](#): > > I feel that if Putin is not stopped in Ukraine, the next country will be a NATO nation anyway. So, if we don’t stop him there, the likelihood of nuclear war actually goes up. Actually, my bet is still on Moldova as the next target and not a NATO country. That said - based on how things are going in Ukraine I don’t think Putin would be _able_ to invade another country right now. Certainly not a NATO one. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I really hope that happens. > > Or that some cleaning lady who nobody notices takes him out. I had a brief flash of a baba clubbing him to death with mop and then stuffing his mouth with sunflower seeds. My mind is going in weird places lately. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2996 "2022-03-22T10:08:38Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Russia and Japan have been trying to establish a peace treaty ever since World War 2, and Russia announced recently that they have broken off talks with Japan due to Japan’s support for Ukraine. And now Japan has announced that they are monitoring Russian ships traveling between Japanese islands. > [https://news.yahoo.com/japan-spots-russian-amphibious-ships-161608407.html](https://news.yahoo.com/japan-spots-russian-amphibious-ships-161608407.html) If Putin thinks he can open up another front in the far east then his cheese really has slid off his cracker. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2997 "2022-03-22T11:29:13Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > If Russia rounds up 10,000 men that have never shot before in their life (and are probably already pissed off about this clusterfuck), and are given 2 days of training on an AK variant and are sent off to fight people they don’t want to fight. People that are defending their lives. That won’t end well for them. My interpretation is that they’re recalling people who have already been conscripted for a year of active duty in past twice-a-year campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2998 "2022-03-22T11:46:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If Putin thinks he can open up another front in the far east then his cheese really has slid off his cracker. From the article: > [@](#): > > Japanese media reported the ministry believes the ships were bringing additional units from Russia’s far east to shore up its forces involved in the invasion of Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/2999 "2022-03-22T11:57:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The people being slaughtered look like us. By “us” I mean the majority of the people in Europe and the US. > > A cynical position I know, and not one I personally agree with, but I think it’s the reality. While I agree with this, I also believe that in addition, they live like us and live near us. Though equally horrible I can’t easily imagine living in Syria and being bombed into ruins and fleeing across the Med. On the other hand, I can extremely easily relate to what I see going on in Ukraine, to the point that it’s not hard for me to mentally convert a ruined Ukrainian city into a ruined Montreal with thousands of refugees trying to escape by picking their way through the ruins of the Turcot exchange. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3000 "2022-03-22T12:58:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Lamoral](#): > > > > I understand what you’re saying, but there’s been horrific atrocities committed all around the world within our lives and the US/NATO did not intervene, and that was when the bad guys _didn’t_ have nuclear bombs. Why is this specific situation so much more important? > > The people being slaughtered look like us. By “us” I mean the majority of the people in Europe and the US. > > A cynical position I know, and not one I personally agree with, but I think it’s the reality. IMHO this is only a small part of the reason why Ukraine is different. > [@velomont](#): > > While I agree with this, I also believe that in addition, **they live like us** and live near us. Though equally horrible I can’t easily imagine living in Syria and being bombed into ruins and fleeing across the Med. > > On the other hand, I can extremely easily relate to what I see going on in Ukraine, to the point that it’s not hard for me to mentally convert a ruined Ukrainian city into a ruined Montreal with thousands of refugees trying to escape by picking their way through the ruins of the Turcot exchange. That they live like us is the bigger part. Ukraine was a western country, in the sense of being both a democracy and having a developed economy. With Ukraine the choice is between a western lifestyle vs. living in a totalitarian dictatorship. Yes, that was a very recent development with the toppling of Yanukovich and election of Zelenzky. Still, despite their democracy being less than a decade old, they had finally achieved it. In those other countries the choices were / are between theocracy, anarchy, totalitarian dictatorship, or multiple small dictatorships (warlords) fighting against each other. Western style democracy wasn’t an option due to the people rejecting that as an option. Just look at Syria as an example. The choice there seems to be to either support Assad, or support some version or another of a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. Afghanistan is another. When given a chance to vote, they chose a corrupt system. Once that choice was removed, they went back to theocracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=149) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=151)