# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 164
### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3261 "2022-03-24T16:46:53Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling has likened the “Bucha Gap” to the Falaise Pocket.
It seems like the Ukranians studied military history, while the Russians ommited that from the curriculum. From the posted article:
> the German Army had been expending irreplaceable resources in the attempt to defend the Normandy frontline. Also, the Allied air forces had air superiority up to 100 km behind enemy lines. Allied forces continuously bombed and strafed vital German logistical lines that provided **reinforcements and supplies, such as fuel and ammunition.**
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3262 "2022-03-24T16:46:57Z")
The Russians [do have anti-ballistic missile defense capability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile#Soviet_Union/Russian_Federation), including Surface-to-Air missile systems that can shoot them down.
It looks like it might be another example of Russian incompetence that the port wasn’t better defended.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3263 "2022-03-24T16:50:28Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> Is the port physically destroyed or are you just saying that it’s not (currently) safe to use?
You can see a pic of the port upthread, with a burning wreck in the water in front of it. Clearly, the port hasn’t been “destroyed,” although how much of the port infrastructure has been damaged is impossible to say from here. Apparently, at least one warehouse was destroyed, and they probably want to examine those cranes near the wreck really carefully for structural damage, but I think the two things that are really going to hinder Russian use of the port is threat of further Ukrainian attacks, and loss of capacity while that wreck is blocking part of the waterfront.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3264 "2022-03-24T16:51:05Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> Is the port physically destroyed or are you just saying that it’s not (currently) safe to use?
We don’t know how badly damaged the port is, though there are reports of an ammunition warehouse and a fuel storage tank being destroyed. The cranes in the vicinity were probably damaged, and the wreck of the ship will block that part of the dock.
Even if the port is not much damaged, it’s now been shown that the Russians can’t safely use it, or any other port within range of Ukrainian missiles.
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### Author:  [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3265 "2022-03-24T16:59:30Z")
> [@bordelond](#):
>
> FWIW, the video does not mention the Ukrainian navy … only “forces.”
Good point. I was unconsciously conflating the title of the video which says the ship was destroyed “Ukranian Navy claims” to assume the navy was claiming they themselves did the deed.
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### Author:  [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3266 "2022-03-24T17:04:43Z")
If some hacker had access to printers in Russia the worst thing they might do would be to print honest daily updates on the war - as reported in the west. Print them out with a header that appears to be an actual a Russian news source.
No need to print thousands of copies. Once credibility is established the ----- SAMIZDAT.
For more details, see the book _Black Boomerang_ by Sefton Delmer. It is an history of England’s efforts to undermine the Nazis morale by radio broadcasts - purported to come from official Nazi radio stations.
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3267 "2022-03-24T17:08:17Z")
I wonder if this will force the Russian Air Force into a campaign of scud-hunting, as we called it in 1991. That would be a reasonable response given the threat.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3268 "2022-03-24T17:16:05Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Difficult to speculate whether this is Russian incompetence or Ukrainian brilliance, but it surely can’t be good for Russian supplies in the south-east.
If it’s an amphibious assault ship then then those are sitting targets of high value. It only takes a single drone rocket launched into the interior to take out the landing craft and possibly the ship itself.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3269 "2022-03-24T17:20:19Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#):
>
> so the Russians now have to refigure and ‘improvise’…
[This invasion reminds me of a Monty Python sketch.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ns5OG0Rt0&t=0m30s)
RUSSIA: Good morning, I am an invader. Er, please don’t panic, just hand over all your country.
UKRAINE: _(politely)_ This is a sovereign nation, sir.
RUSSIA: Fine, fine, fine. _(slightly nonplussed)_ **Adopt, adapt and improve.** Motto of the round table. Well, um… what have you got?
UKRAINE: _(still politely)_ Er, we’ve got mining and production, chemical industries, energy, information technology, aircraft and aerospace, agriculture, and tourism, sir.
RUSSIA: Fine, fine, fine, fine. No large tracts of land you’d be willing to part with?
UKRAINE: No, sir.
RUSSIA: No Ukrainians wanting to be part of Mother Russia?
UKRAINE: No sir.
RUSSIA: No piles military equipment you’re not using?
UKRAINE: None at all sir.
RUSSIA: No luncheon vouchers?
UKRAINE: No, sir.
RUSSIA: Fine, fine. Well, just some fuel so we can get home then, please.
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### Author:  [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3270 "2022-03-24T17:22:29Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I think the two things that are really going to hinder Russian use of the port is threat of further Ukrainian attacks
_snip_
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> Even if the port is not much damaged, it’s now been shown that the Russians can’t safely use it, or any other port within range of Ukrainian missiles.
I agree entirely that this attack is a big setback for Russia and that threat of future attacks will be a deterrent on re-supplying through this port, based on what we know now. What I think is premature is saying things like the port can “no longer” be used for anything, as if that is a fact and/or a permanent condition. We don’t know that yet.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3271 "2022-03-24T17:26:39Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> I wonder if this will force the Russian Air Force into a campaign of scud-hunting, as we called it in 1991. That would be a reasonable response given the threat.
The Ukrainians would just _love_ that. Launch a strike, then when the Russian Air Farce responds, use all those nice MANPADS the West has sent them.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3272 "2022-03-24T17:26:50Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> I wonder if this will force the Russian Air Force into a campaign of scud-hunting, as we called it in 1991. That would be a reasonable response given the threat.
They’re going to burn through their inventory of aircraft if they do. I suspect the accounting of what they have on paper has met the reality of what they have in operational inventory. It’s not just a hunk of metal sitting on a ramp. It’s all the high tech systems inside it and supporting it.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3273 "2022-03-24T17:50:43Z")
Jack Detsch retweeted:
> The U.S. has begun consulting with NATO allies on providing anti-ship missiles to Ukraine, a senior administration official says.
>
> “There may be some technical challenges with making that happen, but that is something that we are consulting with allies and starting to work on”
I don’t know why they weren’t doing this long ago.
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3274 "2022-03-24T18:01:29Z")
, and they can probably use a lot more Stingers and other types of SAMs, too, if Russia is going to step up air attacks as is widely expected. NATO and the US made the argument that SAMs are a lot more effective defense than supplying Ukraine with MiGs. I don’t know if that’s true, but if that’s the NATO position, then step up what we’re already doing and give them all the anti-aircraft missiles we can, as fast as we can. Personally I think we should be giving them MiGs as well.
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3275 "2022-03-24T18:05:56Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> The cranes in the vicinity were probably damaged, and the wreck of the ship will block that part of the dock.
There are other videos showing secondary explosions going off, and at least one other ship on fire. If they had enough secondaries to damage another ship, it’s a good bet the cranes right next to the first ship were also damaged.
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3276 "2022-03-24T18:07:48Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> I wonder if this will force the Russian Air Force into a campaign of scud-hunting, as we called it in 1991. That would be a reasonable response given the threat.
A reasonable response, but also probably a dangerous one. They’d likely have to get closer to the Ukrainian AAA than they’d really like.
So let’s hope they do that.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3277 "2022-03-24T18:19:47Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> I don’t know why they weren’t doing this long ago.
The administration seems to be way behind the ball. All of this is stuff they should have been pre-planning and had ready to go back in Jan-Feb before the invasion began, in anticipation of an invasion.
The US is still providing good support, but it could have been so much better, so much more, so much sooner. They could have executed an Operation Ukrainian Glory or whatever they’d call it, to airlift massive amounts of supplies to Poland once war kicked off, for rapid transport to Ukraine. The Ukrainians could have been using the antiship missiles right now already, instead of this still being in the talking stage.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3278 "2022-03-24T18:43:08Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#):
> >
> > How is this “laid down his arms evidenced”? Don’t you need to actually make some action to surrender?
>
> I’m thinking about a situation where if the soldier were replaced with an ordinary citizen, it would be a clear case of murder. IOW, the soldier isn’t carrying a weapon or presenting an imminent threat of violence.
What is a “weapon”? This is wartime: a fucking cellphone is a weapon, even just in the “deserter’s” pocket, relaying location info back to command. Truth may be the first casualty of war, but her sister Trust lies right next to her.
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### Author:  [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3279 "2022-03-24T19:03:54Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> but I was thinking of the situation described upthread where the enemy soldier has laid down his arms (but is still wearing his enemy uniform, so clearly not an ordinary citizen) and is begging or **stealing** food from the local civilian populace.
Bolding mine. Currently, there is a major food shortage in Ukraine. There is a BIG difference between begging for help and stealing someone’s last bite of food. I’d submit that most people would react much differently depending on just what the enemy soldier is doing.
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3280 "2022-03-24T19:16:40Z")
> [@tofor](#):
>
> Ukraine claims its navy is responsible for the explosion in Berdyansk:
Thanks, that’s a much better video than others I had seen. Whether it’s on the ship or dockside, that looks like ammunition cooking off.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> I can’t imagine a government prosecuting its own civilians for killing invaders, no matter what the circumstances. How much public support do you think that would have?
Agreed. A medal is more likely than prosecution.
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> I think just knowing that the port is in missile range should be enough to discourage its use.
That depends on how long the ships are docked, how quick Ukrainian intelligence can report targets, and how quickly they can launch. With limited missiles Ukraine won’t want to be firing randomly into the port.
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> I wonder if this will force the Russian Air Force into a campaign of scud-hunting, as we called it in 1991. That would be a reasonable response given the threat.
I don’t think the Russians are capable of anything like that. They don’t have anything like the air superiority needed to go hunting for portable missiles. Truthfully, Scud hunting was of limited success. The Scud hunts and giving Israel the Patriot system was mainly to keep Israel from actively retaliating for the missile attacks on them.
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