# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 165
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3281 "2022-03-24T19:48:48Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> > [@DPRK](#):
> >
> > I heard a first-hand account of exactly how they dealt with a young German soldier on the lam caught stealing food from a French village. No cops.
>
> If private citizens murder a foreign soldier in a situation that’s not self-defense, is it considered a war crime, or just a crime?
Arguably, if food is short, that would in fact be an argument for self-defense.
Very, very seldom would such a situation wind up in court.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3282 "2022-03-24T19:56:13Z")
And if it was a jury trial, what jury would convict?
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3283 "2022-03-24T19:57:24Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#):
> >
> > The means of targeting a ship docked in port is available on your smart phone.
>
> For modern NATO missiles, sure, but that’s not what we have here. Do the Ukrainians have this capacity?
Based on the available evidence… I’d say “yes”.
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> NATO and the US made the argument that SAMs are a lot more effective defense than supplying Ukraine with MiGs. I don’t know if that’s true, but if that’s the NATO position, then step up what we’re already doing and give them all the anti-aircraft missiles we can, as fast as we can.
I’ll just point out that you can train someone to use a MANPAD type SAM a _lot_ quicker than you can teach them to fly an airplane, any airplane, much less a fighter plane.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3284 "2022-03-24T20:08:15Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> That depends on how long the ships are docked, how quick Ukrainian intelligence can report targets,
I’m probably not the only one who suspects that the US is tracking Russian ships _very_ carefully, and is giving real time reports to the Ukranians on specific locations, down to a few meters.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3285 "2022-03-24T20:09:54Z")
I agree, tracking ships is probably one of the easiest tasks today.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3286 "2022-03-24T20:15:58Z")
If there were a non-ukrainian submarine lurking about in the Azov taking out warships, would the russians be able to spot it easily?
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3287 "2022-03-24T20:17:41Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> I agree, tracking ships is probably one of the easiest tasks today.
A simple phone call from a resident of Berdyansk was probably all that was needed in this case.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3288 "2022-03-24T20:18:15Z")
- As Ukraine has no subs at all, the answer is yes.
- Knowing the ship took a torpedo is a lot easier.
- Knowing which Navy was responsible is another story.
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3289 "2022-03-24T20:21:54Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> If there were a non-ukrainian submarine lurking about in the Azov taking out warships, would the russians be able to spot it easily?
The Sea of Azov is the shallowest sea in the world with an average depth of 23 feet and maximum depth of 46 feet. It would be a death trap for any submarine.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3290 "2022-03-24T20:22:49Z")
In the Azov? It had better be a suicide run, because there is only one way out and the Russians have very good ASW capabilities.
ETA: Given the above depths, you couldn’t even get a modern sub in there.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3291 "2022-03-24T20:25:36Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#):
>
> an average depth of 23 feet and maximum depth of 46 feet.
Now I have this image of a Virginia class submarine with a draft of 32 feet stuck on the bottom of the sea.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3292 "2022-03-24T20:26:54Z")
Better move would be a US submarine (SSGN like the USS _Florida_) lurking in the Mediterranean, not even entering the Black Sea, but firing off 154 Tomahawks at Russian targets in Ukraine.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3293 "2022-03-24T20:30:45Z")
Oh, sure. That wouldn’t piss anybody off _at all._
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3294 "2022-03-24T20:31:53Z")
The Baltic is closer and there would be little question in the minds of the Russians who was responsible.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3295 "2022-03-24T20:35:10Z")
Sure, I didn’t mean secrecy. I just meant that if we must use subs, there’s no need to get into the Sea of Azov.
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3296 "2022-03-24T20:36:27Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> I’m probably not the only one who suspects that the US is tracking Russian ships _very_ carefully, and is giving real time reports to the Ukranians on specific locations, down to a few meters.
That’s possible, but as I said upthread I’m not sure how real time the communications are between the intelligence and the ability to act on it.
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#):
>
> A simple phone call from a resident of Berdyansk was probably all that was needed in this case.
You would need someone that could ID Russian ships, tho that’s probably not too hard in these circumstances. But they also need to know who to call to get a timely response. So, probably someone with intelligence contacts.
> [@silenus](#):
>
> Oh, sure. That wouldn’t piss anybody off _at all._
Well phrased!
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3297 "2022-03-24T20:36:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> I just meant that if we must use subs, there’s no need to get into the Sea of Azov.
If there’s no need for secrecy; there’s no need for subs.
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### Author:  [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3298 "2022-03-24T20:55:26Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#):
>
> Is the port physically destroyed or are you just saying that it’s not (currently) safe to use?
If anyone’s curious, here’s what the port area looked like pre-raid per Google Maps (how did we ever survive without this??). [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7498701,36.7774229,24248m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) Looks like there is berthing space for about 8 medium-size ships there in normal times, hard to say how many of them are now out of commission. One thing I did notice, I can’t see any rail lines directly connecting the port to the main trunk line, so any supplies moving out of the port will have to go by truck to reach the front line troops, or be moved to then be re-loaded onto railcars. Not a great situation logistically speaking and given the Russian’s issues with logistics…
We shall see.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3299 "2022-03-24T21:07:39Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#):
>
> any supplies moving out of the port will have to go by truck to reach the front line troops
The Ukraine army should just wait until they clear the ship, make the port usable again, and get another ship full of equipment in there.
Then blow that one up too.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [March 24, 2022, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3300 "2022-03-24T21:18:56Z")
What if they ~~build a third castle~~ make the port usable a third time, would that work?
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