# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 193
### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3850 "2022-04-02T03:12:22Z")
I guess Ukraine hasn’t captured enough Russian tanks. Article says these tanks have long-range artillery to reach the Donbas region.
Ukraine will need a lot of artillery shells. Maybe thousands of rounds?
> **[U.S. will work with allies to transfer Soviet-made tanks to Ukraine -NY Times](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-will-work-with-allies-transfer-soviet-made-tanks-ukraine-ny-times-2022-04-02/)**
>
> The United States will work with allies to transfer Soviet-made tanks to Ukraine to bolster its defenses in the Donbas region, the New York Times reported on Friday, citing a U.S. official.
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### Author:  [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3851 "2022-04-02T03:23:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> What’s significant about May 9?
That’s the day Russia celebrates at VE (Victory in Europe) Day (we and most of Europe have it as 8 May). Given the massive significance in Russian history of WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as it’s been called in Soviet times), that date is more important than it is to us.
We shall see.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3852 "2022-04-02T03:29:54Z")
That’s a bit strange. It says: “the tanks would allow Ukraine to conduct long-range artillery strikes on Russian targets in the Donbas region of southeastern Ukraine bordering Russia”. Tanks don’t do long-range artillery strikes. Maybe it’s self-propelled guns or something.
Meanwhile, regarding the long-range surface-to-air missile systems:
> [@](#):
>
> A top Pentagon official told lawmakers Wednesday the Biden administration is working to accommodate NATO ally Slovakia’s offer to send more S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Ukraine, following Russia’s invasion.
> **[Will Slovakia send Ukraine S-300 air defenses? The Pentagon is working on it.](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/03/30/will-slovakia-send-ukraine-s-300-air-defenses-the-pentagon-is-working-on-it/)**
>
> A top Pentagon official told lawmakers on Wednesday the Biden administration is working to accommodate NATO ally Slovakia’s offer to send more S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Ukraine, in the wake of Russia’s invasion.
Now, the West needs to get the Ukrainians the MiG aircraft they need.
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### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3853 "2022-04-02T04:05:42Z")
> [@Sauron](#):
>
> I wonder if the _rasputitsa_ is later than usual this year. If that’s the case, that’s another logistical nightmare for Russia.
I thought it started during adolescence in general, not a particular time of year. And I can’t say I blame the Russian generals for getting a little cranky about all these kids suddenly doing whatever they want to.
But are there really that many Russian Amish? And even if there are, most of the ones in the Army have to be older that 14 or 15, right?
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3854 "2022-04-02T04:07:44Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#):
>
> That’s the day Russia celebrates at VE (Victory in Europe) Day (we and most of Europe have it as 8 May). Given the massive significance in Russian history of WWII
I see how important VE day would be to the Russians. Putin would benefit from the propaganda celebrating a Ukraine victory. Even a made-up victory. 🤨
Thanks
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### Author:  [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3855 "2022-04-02T04:18:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#):
>
> I thought it started during adolescence in general, not a particular time of year. And I can’t say I blame the Russian generals for getting a little cranky about all these kids suddenly doing whatever they want to.
>
> But are there really that many Russian Amish? And even if there are, most of the ones in the Army have to be older that 14 or 15, right?
Hehehe, I think you’re thinking Rumspringa.
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### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3856 "2022-04-02T04:39:26Z")
> [@scabpicker](#):
>
> Hehehe, I think you’re thinking Rumspringa
Dear me! You’re on to my little ha-ha! 🥸
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### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3857 "2022-04-02T04:53:29Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> They [leave behind the living too](https://twitter.com/GissiSim/status/1508865113582981121).
What the heck is up with this (if it is not a staged video)?
I can understand reasons why the dead might be left behind (it might still be a betrayal of sorts, but one can see reasons it may happen). But what are the reasons–even horrible, dumbass reasons–to leave non-dead, non-injured military comrades chasing after your troop truck like bad-guy oafs in some bad comedy film.
Maybe they were just messing with them and came back in a few minutes?
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3858 "2022-04-02T05:11:47Z")
Charitable explanations might be that they’d spotted the drone and were running away. Or the driver was sloppy in checking everyone was onboard. Or, as somewhat fancifully suggested, the soldiers were abandoning their officers and deserting.
Actually, it’s not impossible that it was deliberate. An article [I posted earlier in the thread](https://www.csis.org/blogs/post-soviet-post/best-or-worst-both-worlds) describes the brutal and persistent hazing problem (_dedovshchina_) that has existed in the Russian military for decades. One draftee wrote that, in his regiment, “if combat action began, one half of the company might shoot the other.”
If it’s any consolation, getting abandoned in a forest in Ukraine in the middle of winter probably has a higher survival rate than driving around in a Russian military truck in Ukraine.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3859 "2022-04-02T05:30:51Z")
>
Wikipedia says Russia has 1,200 troops in Transnistria in Moldova, on Ukraine’s western border.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3860 "2022-04-02T06:44:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> > They need a victory. They have the sacred date - 9 May. To this date they have a goal to end everything with a victory parade.
This is a problem for Putin.
The ‘special military operation’ was so hyped in the beginning that anything short of a total victory will be seen as a loss. Whatever small gains Putin may make, and whatever peace agreement he may get, Russia will see that as a failure.
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3861 "2022-04-02T06:58:38Z")
British Defence Intelligence update:
[ ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPUKBtpXsAEvu2w?format=jpg&name=small)
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3862 "2022-04-02T08:25:53Z")
Sorry to backtrack, was on a short vacation, and this thread moves fast.
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#):
>
> _Sigh_ Anton Yelchin could have been perfect for this.
“He’s dead, Jim. I’m a doctor, not a necromancer!”
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> Except that the people who said that it was poisoning with chemical weapons were two separate chemical weapons experts and a doctor.
Yes, but they have no actual proof that I saw in the article. From what it read like, the diagnosis was only based on reported symptoms. These are important guys, right? Three of four are taken ill at the same time, yet they can’t be taken to a hospital or have a nurse sent over to take blood samples and monitor their vital signs. Instead, they lay around sick for a few days until a third party smuggles in some sort of doctor and two chemical warfare experts who diagnose them by asking questions. What kind of doctor and why not biological warfare experts?
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> I admit that I thought at first it would be more like an Afghanistan situation, dragging on for a couple of years before Russia would be forced to give up. It took a week or so before I realized that the Russians were going to lose militarily. The fact that they were unable to gain air superiority in the first week was the crucial indication.
This was my thinking also. The lack of air asset use by Russia right off the bat confused me. It took awhile to kick in that they weren’t using them because they _couldn’t_, not because they didn’t want to. That told me this was going to be a different kind of war and lowered my opinion of Russian control of the battlefield. I also have to admit that I remain surprised that NATO acted so quickly en bloc. I fully expected them to argue back and forth for weeks.
> [@Tamerlane](#):
>
> Just another reason war is something to be avoided. It brings out the inner shittiness of humanity.
Every single time. There are always people who need to take out their rage or frustration on someone, and it’s often prisoners or civilians.
> [@Hypno-Toad](#):
>
> I wonder how Lukashenko really feels down deep about watching Big Brother get smacked around by Ukraine. A little relief, maybe? A bit of Schadenfreude?
A little fear, wondering about having tied his future to Putin.
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> Questions are now being asked in Washington about how US intelligence could have so overestimated the capabilities of the Russian military. What they did manage to get right was predicting that Putin would invade.
I’m not surprised. We always seem to overestimate major countries, especially the USSR/Russia. It’s like the CIA just watches the May Day parade and says " Wow, they got a lot of stuff! They must be able to do anything they want!" Except they always seem to forget that the troops have low morale and poor training. And that local commanders have very little control over deviating from their mission if something goes awry.
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> I wonder if Putin knows about any of that stuff, or if his advisors are too afraid to tell him.
Unless Putin is so far gone he can’t watch tv, he must have a pretty good idea what’s going on. Just the fact that the war has gone on this long and they are calling up more troops would be a good clue.
I gotta say the fact that Putin and his Defense Secretary are supposedly in nuclear bunkers worries me more than new troops being deployed.
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Guardian published some battlefield photos. Gas masks? I haven’t heard any reports of attacks with chemical weapons.
Those are the older Russian style gas masks I am familiar with. The newer ones have a single lens cover for both eyes, like ski goggles or a skin diving mask. I’ve actually looked for gas mask containers carried by Russian troops but have not seen any that I can think of. Of course, these could be Ukrainian ones via Russia.
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#):
>
> Are Russian forces withdrawing because they said they would?
Kind of yes, but really no. They were stuck and knew it. They seem to think setting it up as a voluntary withdrawal to pursue peace talks makes them look good. Keep in mind that they are still shelling the cities as the withdraw.
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#):
>
> Are Russian forces withdrawing because Russia is about to carpet bomb Kyiv into dust?
They don’t have the airpower to carpet bomb anything. What they are doing is using artillery to shell whatever they can reach, whether it is military or not. They are also wasting, in my opinion, expensive missiles on civilian targets. Often just for the hell of it because there are not even civilians left there.
> [@GreenWyvern](#):
>
> Armchair generals in Moscow… I wonder how honest the generals on the ground are when reporting back to them.
I’m not sure what good it would do for officers on the ground to lie. They actually need the troops and supplies to prosecute the war. Unless it just so ingrained in the officer corps not to complain about anything.
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> I feel the Ukrainians would be more forceful in their denial if it was a false flag attack. So one of the other two options.
Yes, the ghosts seem the most likely. I’ll go with that. You never know what’s on those dead bastards minds.
> [@enipla](#):
>
> Would not surprise me one bit if it was a couple of lost Russian helo pilots.
Or, not so lost as angry. Or still the ghost thing.
> [@smithsb](#):
>
> This is why I never accept cookies.
No no no. Never accept cookies from _strangers_. Let’s not go overboard here!
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Just to help keep things in context for a southerner like @aceplace57, here in Saskatchewan I still have snow in my front yard (south facing, gets lots of sunlight) and lots of snow in my backyard (north-facing, not getting as much sunlight).
Couple hundred miles south of you and went from zero snow on the ground and temps in the 50sF. It’s now 22F and we got five inches of snow. Yay spring!
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-will-work-with-allies-transfer-soviet-made-tanks-ukraine-ny-times-2022-04-02/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-will-work-with-allies-transfer-soviet-made-tanks-ukraine-ny-times-2022-04-02/)
I hope they use these Russian tanks better than Russia used theirs. 😀
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Tanks don’t do long-range artillery strikes. Maybe it’s self-propelled guns or something.
Probably. Reporters are notorious for calling anything with armor on it a tank. A modern tank is good for 2500-3000 meters in direct fire. Indirect fire can be 10km. A self propelled artillery piece can reach 70 km.
Just for info, this is a video of exactly the wrong thing to do in an ambush. You attack towards the ambush, hoping to break it up. Watch what happens. About 3 minutes, but the ambush footage is shorter.
[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-w-39TOGp8)
Why the switch from yellow ID bands to blue for Ukrainian troops BTW?
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### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3863 "2022-04-02T08:39:38Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> Three of four are taken ill at the same time, yet they can’t be taken to a hospital or have a nurse sent over to take blood samples and monitor their vital signs. Instead, they lay around sick for a few days until a third party smuggles in some sort of doctor and two chemical warfare experts who diagnose them by asking questions.
At least get your facts straight, rather than making wild guesses. Read the posted articles. Don’t expect me to do that for you.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3864 "2022-04-02T09:06:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> In any event, I’m worried about Putin’s next move, now that “withdrawing forces” has proven to be a lie as usual – as before the invasion, merely a deception while battle plans are formulated. I fear that renewed attacks may be more vicious than before, in what may be perhaps a last-ditch attempt to achieve some kind of “victory” via scorched-earth.
They’re already pretty damned vicious, and the Russians have zero inhibitions about leaving the evidence behind as they retreat. You really have to wonder about these guys living in these villages with dead, rotting bodies strewn everywhere.
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> I honestly don’t think Putin is congenitally capable of backing out until he is either deposed or dead.
No, he isn’t. If he doesn’t win he leaves office in a box.
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> It will take up to seven months to train the new conscripts - who are being conscripted as part of regular scheduled annual service, rather than being conscripted specifically for the Ukraine war - before they can be sent to the battlefield.
Nope. _Western_ militaries might think that way, but I fully believe Putin’s government will happily hand the new guys a gun and throw them into the fight immediately.
Keep in mind that Ukraine essentially did that and they’re having some success with it. Of course _their_ guys understand why they’re fighting and highly motivated. “Russian conscripts” we know are kept uninformed and why should they be motivated to fight and die in Ukraine?
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> If you have a single general, in charge of an army in Ukraine, maybe that might keep Putin worried…best to have multiple generals far away in Moscow.
That, and the generals actually in Ukraine have a disturbing tendency to get shot in the head or run over by their own tanks.
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Just to help keep things in context for a southerner like @aceplace57, here in Saskatchewan I still have snow in my front yard (south facing, gets lots of sunlight) and lots of snow in my backyard (north-facing, not getting as much sunlight).
I’m at lattitude 41 North and yesterday I had to clean snow off my car before going to work. Spring in the Chicago area! Granted, it’s not as much as @Northern_Piper but while it’s spring there is still snow around.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3865 "2022-04-02T09:37:35Z")
Ukraine is going to need trained bomb disposal technicians and equipment.
It’s going to take a lot of skilled and dangerous work to clear the cities of mines and trip wires. Otherwise people trying to clear rubble and begin repairs will needlessly die. Farmers have to plow fields and plant wheat.
I’m not sure how it can be done. Perhaps contractors like the US used in Iraq? Pay them through a international fund. They would only work in areas free of fighting.
I saw a documentary on British efforts to clear the Falklands of mines. It’s taken 38 years. A group of about 100 Zimbabwean contractors were hired. A machine plowed the beaches and unearthed mines. It was armoured and small anti-personnel mines wouldn’t damage the machine. The mines were defused or destroyed. [Falklands cleared of nearly all landmines, 38 years on from war | Falkland Islands | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/10/falklands-cleared-landmines-uk-argentina-war)
The Guardian blog
> [@](#):
>
> ## Russians placing mines in homes and corpses as they withdraw, says Zelenskiy
>
> **Volodymyr Zelenskiy warned his people early on Saturday that retreating Russian forces were creating “a complete disaster”** outside the capital Kyiv by leaving mines across “the whole territory,” including around homes and corpses.
>
> The Ukrainian president said Russian forces were withdrawing slowly but noticeably from around Kyiv and the northern city of Chernihiv.
> But he warned: “They are mining the whole territory. They are mining homes, mining equipment, even the bodies of people who were killed. There are a lot of trip wires, a lot of other dangers.”
>
> Ukraine’s military said it had retaken 29 settlements in the Kyiv and Chernihiv regions.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3866 "2022-04-02T11:51:56Z")
A lot of new weapons are being field tested in Ukraine. The Starstreak has already taken down a Russian Mi-28N helicopter. [Russia vows to target British weapons after helicopter shot down with 'Starstreak' missile - LBC](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/british-starstreak-missile-shoots-down-russian-helicopter-as-invaders-lose-nearl/)
This is a two seat, anti-armor attack helicopter. [Mil Mi-28 - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-28)
> [@](#):
>
> The Starstreak system is a laser-guided missile that travels at more than three times the speed of sound, designed to take down low-flying jets and attack helicopters.
>
> The cutting-edge system fires three tungsten darts towards its target, and the projectile cannot be ‘spoofed’ by aircraft flares and counter-measures as it is not heat-seeking, instead relying on a twin laser-guidance system.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3867 "2022-04-02T12:06:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> They are mining homes, mining equipment, even the bodies of people who were killed
(Quote is from Guardian article).
Wow. If true, is this a war crime? Should be.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3868 "2022-04-02T12:09:23Z")
It’s from Zelenskiy’s speech. Translated to English. There is a video on theguardian with English subtitles.
Landmines are banned by many countries. I doubt Russia signed any agreements.
It’s going to take a long time to rebuild Ukraine. They did it before after WWII.
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2022, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/3869 "2022-04-02T12:13:14Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#):
>
> Wow. If true, is this a war crime? Should be.
I’m going to keep insisting it doesn’t really matter. The invasion itself was a air crime, and so then is every violent act against Ukraine in connection with that invasion. A Russian soldier exchanges shots in anger with a Ukrainian soldier during genuine combat, and so strikes and kills the Ukrainian in the exchange? That’s a war crime. Therefore, the only question to my mind is how much blame attaches to the individual Russian soldier.
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