# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 213
### Author:  [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4304 "2022-04-09T15:14:37Z")
> [@naita](#):
>
> > [@Magiver](#):
> >
> > It will eventually sink in.
>
> I doubt it. Buying into the propaganda can be quite persistent. How many Trump fans have come to the light so far? And they won’t even have to face having enthusiastically supported a campaign of terror on civilians in a neighboring country.
I think that this is going to be a huge issue for the next several years which will be dependent on the immediate (say within the next year or so and assuming a Ukrainian victory which includes the total removal of Russian forces from all of Ukraine) outcome of this war.
If the outcome is such that enough of disbelieving Russian citizenry is forced to spend a few weeks touring destroyed Ukrainian cities, and seeing mass graves and any other relevant evidence, then it might “eventually sink in”. But even that could take a long time and would be contingent upon Putin’s removal.
On the other hand, if there’s an alternate resolution and Russia only ceases to the extent that there’s a lingering, really toxic cold war, for an indefinite period of several decades, they I don’t think that anything will sink in.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4305 "2022-04-09T15:26:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> Lenin, Stalin, Putin. No one could have predicted it.
Russian leadership is kind of interesting. Of the Soviet leaders, they all seemed to come from outlying areas. Stalin was Georgian, Krushchev was from around Kursk, Breshnev was from Ukraine, Cherneko was from just over the Urals (near-Siberia), Andropov and Gorbachev were from the Stavropol region (Andropov may have been born in Moscow but he grew up down south). Kursk borders on Ukraine and Stavropol borders on Georgia.
Yetsin was from Moscow, Medvedev and Putin from Leningrad, all born in the Soviet Union. Gorbachev was the first Soviet leader born in the Soviet Union rather than the Russian Empire. So, maybe, the next proper reformer in Russia will have to be someone born in the Russian Republic, probably not an urbanite. It may be a while.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4306 "2022-04-09T15:37:00Z")
> [@naita](#):
>
> I doubt it. Buying into the propaganda can be quite persistent. How many Trump fans have come to the light so far? And they won’t even have to face having enthusiastically supported a campaign of terror on civilians in a neighboring country.
This is correct. If, in 2019, Trump had ordered an invasion of Canada because they would not give him free maple syrup for his pancakes, we would have seen 60 million enthusiastic Americans agreeing that Canada was an existential threat, and bombing hospitals in Toronto was an appropriate response.
People are nuts.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4307 "2022-04-09T15:38:30Z")
Analysis of the next phase of the war. The stakes are high for both countries. Ukraine could be invaded again this summer.
> [@](#):
>
> Having committed the majority of his forces, President Vladimir Putin must hit his objectives before the Victory Day Parade on 9 May or else face a steady decline in Russian combat power through exhaustion. This is likely to encourage the Russians to apply many of their most devastating weapons systems. But if Putin fails he will then face a choice: to seek an exit or to move Russia on to a war footing and mobilise reserves. That would mean abandoning the fiction that the war in [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) is merely a “special operation”.
>
> For the Ukrainians the next month will be costly but potentially decisive. If Russia seizes the Donbas it can go firm and can pause while it brings up reserves for a summer offensive. On the other hand, if Russia fails to hit its objectives then many of its units will find themselves thrust forwards and exposed, at risk of persistent attrition like the troops who [recently retreated from Kyiv](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/02/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-retreat-zelenskiy-kyiv-us-biden-uk-evacuees-escape-mariupol).
> **[Why the battle for Donbas will be very different from the assault on Kyiv](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/09/donbas-ukraine-russia-battle-very-different-from-kyiv-)**
>
> Now that Russia has its sights on the Donbas, with a major offensive imminent, the next month will be potentially decisive for Ukraine
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4308 "2022-04-09T15:38:37Z")
> [@velomont](#):
>
> On the other hand, if there’s an alternate resolution and Russia only ceases to the extent that there’s a lingering, really toxic cold war, for an indefinite period of several decades, they I don’t think that anything will sink in.
Exactly. How many average citizens of North Korea know what the outside world is really like? Russia is headed in exactly this direction.
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4309 "2022-04-09T15:53:01Z")
> [@naita](#):
>
> I doubt it. Buying into the propaganda can be quite persistent. How many Trump fans have come to the light so far?
It’s not quite the same. Currently, Trumpers are still being fed the lies by Fox News, OANN and the like.
Now, imagine if Trump was still President, and he suddenly shut down Fox, et al.? You’d have to be pretty hard-core stupid to not notice that something was up.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4310 "2022-04-09T16:24:49Z")
Except Fox, ONAN, and the like are more like Russian state-sponsored outlets and wouldn’t be shut down. Trump would have shut down CNN, NPR, et al.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4311 "2022-04-09T16:33:29Z")
**Modding** : Enough with the political jabs in a Breaking news thread. Please do not do this again.
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### Author:  [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4312 "2022-04-09T16:46:17Z")
Here’s a good article about what Russian troops did in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone (gift link). It includes photos:
> **[Russian Blunders in Chernobyl: ‘They Came and Did Whatever They Wanted’...](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/world/europe/ukraine-chernobyl.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DJDm4SiPsSGYyMvErQf617apwu3C6SRdlMdbQvSeZ0yeVOOwptVwys6NOiqagyHh8U-8i1T39kmNXER6w5-jvnKTXpcr51zuC1-hvbaGf1XKTU0Wkqcwo1vcFhIV2gi3YDk6-VFvVnmYUrhYdXDZ5xQzsEYymPrqOoX004YIPaG0mavgomWOhZWiXRmMqe498DdwZUCFHHTRBv8Dp2qYMcaJ5MYvGJf1N3c9H-gL4RFmVvMI6iYpU1TIXWnL9o2qXf2AD7YbTlChgdcDEFVvX0HQ&smid=url-share)**
>
> Tank treads ripped up the toxic soil, bulldozers carved trenches and bunkers, and soldiers spent a month camped in — and dug into — a radioactive forest.
> Apparently undeterred by safety concerns, the Russian forces tramped about the grounds with bulldozers and tanks, digging trenches and bunkers — and exposing themselves to potentially harmful doses of radiation lingering beneath the surface.
> The soldiers had apparently camped out for weeks in the radioactive forest. While [international nuclear safety experts](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/01/world/europe/chernobyl-radiation-poisoning.html) say they have not confirmed any cases of radiation sickness among the soldiers, the cancers and other potential health problems associated with radiation exposure might not develop until decades later.
> In a particularly ill-advised action, a Russian soldier from a chemical, biological and nuclear protection unit picked up a source of cobalt-60 at one waste storage site with his bare hands, exposing himself to so much radiation in a few seconds that it went off the scales of a Geiger counter, Mr. Simyonov said. It was not clear what happened to the man, he said.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4313 "2022-04-09T17:11:33Z")
> [@velomont](#):
>
> If the outcome is such that enough of disbelieving Russian citizenry is forced to spend a few weeks touring destroyed Ukrainian cities, and seeing mass graves and any other relevant evidence, then it might “eventually sink in”.
what will sink in is living in a society where the government says “nothing to see here” followed up by “we’ll arrest anybody who disagrees”.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4314 "2022-04-09T17:28:00Z")
I haven’t seen Zelensky this happy in awhile. Hopefully the talks were productive.
Imho Visits from world leaders like Boris Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen sends a strong message of support.
[ ](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/143cfee252947cb7b6f264138d630094540c9aed/0_41_3000_1800/master/3000.jpg?width=465&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=f3b8c6745857ced1b32155b415885167)
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4315 "2022-04-09T17:29:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Photo of Boris meeting in Kyiv.
I think that meeting occurred in London. It’s posted by the Ukrainian Embassy.
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### Author:  [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4316 "2022-04-09T17:34:08Z")
[BBC say](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61052643) that Johnson met with Zelensky in Kiev (and that the photo was posted by the Ukrainian Embassy in London).
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4317 "2022-04-09T17:36:12Z")
I know EU President Ursula von der Leyen visited Bucha. There’s photos of her seeing evidence of thee deaths.
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4318 "2022-04-09T17:36:44Z")
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4319 "2022-04-09T17:38:53Z")
> [@romansperson quoting NYT](#):
>
> In a particularly ill-advised action, a Russian soldier from a chemical, biological and nuclear protection unit picked up a source of cobalt-60 at one waste storage site with his bare hands, exposing himself to so much radiation in a few seconds that it went off the scales of a Geiger counter,
Gah! Let’s hope it doesn’t devolve into another [Goiânia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident). There the contamination was cesium-137 but cobalt-60 is also used.
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### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4320 "2022-04-09T17:39:46Z")
> [@Mikkel](#):
>
> [BBC say](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61052643) that Johnson met with Zelensky in Kiev (and that the photo was posted by the Ukrainian Embassy in London).
I think that is a very good move by Zelensky. You don’t want to leave your country for any reason when you are trying to inspire your countrymen to fight off a foreign invader. If he were to leave, even for a short time for a very good reason, Russia would certainly use that as propaganda (i.e. falsely claiming that he had fled the country).
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4321 "2022-04-09T17:47:25Z")
> [@romansperson](#):
>
> It was not clear what happened to the man, he said.
If a big green rage-monster starts stomping around Russia, we’ll know.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4322 "2022-04-09T18:27:03Z")
Boris Johnson is promising a lot. I hope he can deliver.
Austrian chancellor, Karl Nehammer, also met Volodymyr Zelenskiy.
So, wheres VP Harris or Secretary of State Blinken?
Guardian blog
> [@](#):
>
> Johnson signalled that the UK is ready to continue to intensify sanctions on warmonger [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) “week by week” and that Britain will strive to move away from Russian hydrocarbons - ie coal, gas and oil.
>
> He has also indicated that we - and it’s unclear yet if Johnson means specifically the UK or Britain and its European and NATO allies - “will provide support so that [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) will never be invaded again”.
>
> That’s a very front-footed statement, it’s not every day a political leader will venture to use the word “never” in the context of international security and conflict.
> [@](#):
>
> **The Prime Minister has agreed that the UK will send 120 armoured vehicles and new anti-ship missile systems to support Ukraine** **following talks between Boris Johnson and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy in Kyiv on Saturday.**
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### Author:  [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)
#### Post date: [April 9, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4323 "2022-04-09T19:09:23Z")
Bear in mind that the UK is a long way from any border with Russia and it has little dependency on Russian Oil and Gas.
The statement was about “providing support so that Ukraine will never be invaded again”. Well that could mean simply a contribution towards that objective. Whether it would be enough, well that depends on the contributions of all the others in this undefined ‘we’.
Lots of loosely defined terms, plenty of ‘wiggle room’ to interpret it in different ways. Usually politicians are carefully briefed about the wording of such statements. However, Johnson is not very accomplished at diplomat-speak. He was once Foreign Secretary and was very unimpressive in that role, making a series of gaffs much to the dismay of his officials.
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