# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 219
### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4424 "2022-04-12T16:58:31Z")
I don’t know, but I’m wondering whether these are relevant:
1.
> **[Exercise Cold Response 2022 – NATO and partner forces face the freeze in Norway](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_192351.htm)**
>
> What does it take to defend, fight and survive in an Arctic environment? What do you do if you fall through the ice while wearing 20 kilograms of military gear? Cold Response 2022 is a long-planned exercise bringing together thousands of troops from...
1.
> **[Home](https://mc.nato.int/media-centre/news/2022/nato-ships-deploy-to-baltic-sea)**
>
> Allied Maritime Command (MARCOM) is the central command of all NATO maritime forces and the Commander MARCOM is the prime maritime advisor to the Alliance.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4425 "2022-04-12T16:59:33Z")
Day 49 of the war and I am still hoping on the edge of my seat for a Russian attack on a NATO nation or whatever it takes to trigger Article 5…
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4426 "2022-04-12T17:29:01Z")
It goes way back.
> **[Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks | Context](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks#Context)**
>
> Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks depicts a supposedly historical tableau, set in 1676, and based on the legend of Cossacks sending an insulting reply to an ultimatum from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Mehmed IV.\[citation needed\]
> According to the story, the Zaporozhian Cossacks (from "beyond the rapids", Ukrainian: za porohamy), inhabiting the lands around the lower Dnieper River in Ukraine, had defeated Ottoman Empire forces in battle. However, despite his army having suffered this loss to ...
> [@](#):
>
> According to the story, the [Zaporozhian Cossacks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Cossacks) (from “beyond the rapids”, Ukrainian: _za porohamy_ ), inhabiting the lands around the lower [Dnieper River](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_River) in [Ukraine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine), had defeated [Ottoman Empire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) forces in battle. However, despite his army having suffered this loss to them, Mehmed demanded that the Cossacks submit to Ottoman rule. The Cossacks, led by [Ivan Sirko](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Sirko), replied in a characteristic manner; they wrote a letter, replete with insults and profanities. The painting exhibits the Cossacks’ pleasure at striving to come up with ever more base vulgarities.
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### Author:  [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4427 "2022-04-12T17:47:50Z")
So you’re hoping for more people to die. Personally I’m hoping “on the edge of my seat” for peace talks to move forward and negotiate an end to this conflict, but different strokes, I guess.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4428 "2022-04-12T18:03:55Z")
No, I’m hoping for less people to die.
The longer this war goes on as a bloody stalemate that drags on for years and years, the longer the death toll continues - and things like lack of food, medicine, take a greater toll as well. A swift all-out conventional intervention in Ukraine could end this thing in a week and then the rebuilding can begin.
Swift removal of bandage in 2 seconds vs agonizing slow pull off over minutes.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4429 "2022-04-12T18:08:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> A swift all-out conventional intervention in Ukraine could end this thing in a week and then the rebuilding can begin.
I realize this is old ground… But a swift NATO intervention in Ukraine would very likely result in a nuclear response from Russia, which would turn into a complete nuclear strike on every major city in the Western Hemisphere.
The possibility of this is very real, and must be taken into account.
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### Author:  [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4430 "2022-04-12T18:08:32Z")
Way to miss the point. Russia can inflict misery and destruction on Ukraine for months or years eventually killing millions and displacing tens of millions.
So long as a bigger dog doesn’t enter the fight, that seems to be the plan. Destroy, depopulate, consolidate, colonize, destroy, depopulate, etc.
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### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4431 "2022-04-12T18:12:02Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> I realize this is old ground… But a swift NATO intervention in Ukraine would very likely result in a nuclear response from Russia, which would turn into a complete nuclear strike on every major city in the Western Hemisphere.
It’s a risk. But I doubt it’s “very likely.” However, we can agree that even a small risk of global annihilation is a bad thing.
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### Author:  [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4432 "2022-04-12T18:13:23Z")
So it’s in NOBODY’s best interest for Russia to attack a NATO country. Hoping for this to happen, as a means to ending the conflict in Ukraine, seems to me like hoping for someone to shove an M-80 down your drawers because you’ve got a wart on your pecker.
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### Author:  [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4433 "2022-04-12T18:17:18Z")
Or you know, the other thing. I really wonder if there is an actual red line. Maybe in response to chemical weapons a one-time massive strike inside of Ukraine on Russian positions with a “don’t do it again” warning? Its a dangerous game. Unfortunately, a protracted war might cost less lives in the end.
Unrelated - I saw anti-ship missiles were being sent. How long before we could see one of those deployed and how effective are they against large ships? What kind of platform do they require? A successful use would be a morale booster, if nothing else.
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4434 "2022-04-12T18:20:41Z")
> [@MikeF](#):
>
> I really wonder if there is an actual red line.
The red line is NATO Article 5.
Befroe that, you’ll see strong but indirect responses to an escalation like non-nuclear WMD use on a Ukrainian target.
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### Author:  [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4435 "2022-04-12T18:27:40Z")
I understand but I meant in Ukraine. If the Russians publicly executed hundreds of civilians at once or posted video of mass rapes, would everyone just yawn? Minimally, there ought to be some sort of covert action. Easier said than done, however.
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4436 "2022-04-12T18:32:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Evil cackling Russian karting racer [makes Nazi salute](https://twitter.com/FreelFreel/status/1513266489410867204) on podium and gets his contract terminated.
Maybe I’m a bit slow, but I don’t even understand this. Why is a Russian making a Nazi salute and why would he think it’s funny? Most importantly, why is there an International Go-Kart League?
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Yep, getting reports of that now - from the symptoms I’m _guessing_ a nerve agent of some sort.
Can you point me to something with enough details to make a guess? I don’t see any real info other than a couple of soldiers were temporarily sick but are fine now. Nothing about if it was in gas form or aerosol or anything else. No info on if they moved everyone out of the suspected contaminated area.
While I’m willing to bet Russia will use chemical weapons if it suits their plans, I don’t think this is an example of it. Chemical weapons are area weapons. They are not made to drop a small amount on a few soldiers. And it’s not like Russia needs to do a test run. They have used chemical weapons all over the place.
> [@silenus](#):
>
> May be fake, but if not I WANT SOME!!
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> NPR seems to be backing up that this is real.
>
> [A new stamp honors the Ukrainian soldiers who profanely told off a Russian warship : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2022/03/13/1086371078/ukraine-russian-warship-postage-stamp)
As long as we are being a bit lighthearted here, I like this quote from an [article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61021388)on Russian tank losses. **Bolding is mine**.
> "Many tanks have been abandoned because of bad driving. Some have been driven off bridges. Others have been driven into ditches so that the tracks have come off. The ability of the troops to use their equipment has been lacking.
>
> “But often, soldiers have simply abandoned their vehicles and fled. So the will to fight has also been lacking.”
>
> The Ukrainian government has even issued instructions on how citizens should turn in abandoned military vehicles.
>
> **Authorities also confirmed that anyone who found such “combat trophies” did not need to declare them for tax purposes.**
> [@MikeF](#):
>
> I saw anti-ship missiles were being sent. How long before we could see one of those deployed and how effective are they against large ships? What kind of platform do they require? A successful use would be a morale booster, if nothing else.
Way back in the Falkland War, the UK lost 4 ships to the Exocet missile. I believe all those were launched from aircraft, but you can launch them from ship or land also. I’m sure things have improved greatly since then.
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4437 "2022-04-12T18:39:44Z")
> [@MikeF](#):
>
> would everyone just yawn?
Bit of excluded middle there.
NATO would not intervene in active combat. The standing assumption is that the terms of Article 5 work in reverse, too: an attack by a NATO member risks a response tagainst any and all NATO members.
There would be sanction escalation and/or military aid to the victims. I would wish that there would be some kind of “robust humanitarian response”, like an armed convoy to relieve Mariupol which forces the siege line without starting a fight, but their mere presence would probably trigger a Russian attack, so instant Article 5.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4438 "2022-04-12T18:45:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> I realize this is old ground… But a swift NATO intervention in Ukraine would very likely result in a nuclear response from Russia…
So MAD doesn’t work anymore?
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4439 "2022-04-12T18:56:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> No, I’m hoping for less people to die.
>
> The longer this war goes on as a bloody stalemate that drags on for years and years, the longer the death toll continues - and things like lack of food, medicine, take a greater toll as well. A swift all-out conventional intervention in Ukraine could end this thing in a week and then the rebuilding can begin.
>
> Swift removal of bandage in 2 seconds vs agonizing slow pull off over minutes.
I understand the Ukrainian military is taking foreign volunteers. Even absent a massive escalation, every little bit helps, right?
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4440 "2022-04-12T18:57:09Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> Most importantly, why is there an International Go-Kart League?
Entry into Formula-1. Charles LeClerc, this year’s F1 leader, for example, was the runner-up champion in 2013 for the World KZ Championship. Michael Schumacher was a runner-up in 1984. It’s a step in the progression to F1 racing.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4441 "2022-04-12T19:02:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
> >
> > I realize this is old ground… But a swift NATO intervention in Ukraine would very likely result in a nuclear response from Russia…
>
> So MAD doesn’t work anymore?
MAD still works. We just need to consider that nuclear weapons aren’t the only means of destruction. Destruction is destruction, and if it comes at the hands of hundreds of Abrams tanks, A-10 Warthogs, F-16s, and Apache attack helicopters rather than nuclear weapons, that might not matter to those getting destroyed. It’s still destruction and runs the risk of triggering the mutually assured part. Since it’s now obvious that Russia lacks the means to respond conventionally, that means nuclear weapons are what they would turn to.
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### Author:  [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4442 "2022-04-12T19:03:28Z")
MAD only works if both sides realize (and agree) that destroying the world is a Bad Idea and Something to be Avoided™.
We were pretty sure the leaders up through Yeltsin weren’t crazy and weren’t eager to commit suicide. We don’t know if we can count on that with Putin.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4443 "2022-04-12T19:47:51Z")
To all, please keep the MAD and nuclear war talk to the spinoff thread and not this one. Last week a bunch of posts were moved out for the same reason.
> [@Outcome of nuclear escalation and general Nuclear concerns Ukraine - Russia](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/outcome-of-nuclear-escalation-and-general-nuclear-concerns-ukraine-russia/962302/139):
>
> Putin can’t roll into Europe. His ground forces are a paper tiger. His failure to take Kiev proved that. All he has is threat of nukes, and we don’t even know if they still work.
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