# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 220
### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4444 "2022-04-12T19:59:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#):
>
> Entry into Formula-1. Charles LeClerc, this year’s F1 leader, for example, was the runner-up champion in 2013 for the World KZ Championship. Michael Schumacher was a runner-up in 1984. It’s a step in the progression to F1 racing.
No kidding? I never would have guessed that in a million years. I guess I can see the similarities now that I think about it. Learn something new every day.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4445 "2022-04-12T20:06:24Z")
Anybody want to see a former CIA officer’s take on Putin?
[Opinion: Seeing the world through Putin’s eyes - CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/11/opinions/understanding-putin-worldview-london/index.html)
> The West must recognize Putin is not one for maintaining the status quo or playing by others’ rules. But he’s not the suicidal type either if escalating pressure is brought to bear…
>
> Putin is a former KGB officer who came of age during the Cold War. Intelligence officers, particularly those running operations in the foreign field, are risk-takers but not gamblers. Rarely is there a Hail Mary pass in espionage…
>
> While not consciously reckless, Putin suffers from the hubris of the powerful. If he’s like the other Russian intelligence officers I’ve known, Putin is likely to be naturally defensive when challenged, believing his conclusions are the product of intensive study, expertise and his own exhaustive testing.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4446 "2022-04-12T20:11:58Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> > [@Broomstick](#):
> >
> > Yep, getting reports of that now - from the symptoms I’m _guessing_ a nerve agent of some sort.
>
> Can you point me to something with enough details to make a guess? I don’t see any real info other than a couple of soldiers were temporarily sick but are fine now. Nothing about if it was in gas form or aerosol or anything else. No info on if they moved everyone out of the suspected contaminated area.
Information is sketchy at this point because Mariupol is under siege and attack. A lot of the first-hand reports are from social media and rather brief. Right now outsiders are attempting to get confirmation of what may or may not have happened.
The reports are that a drone or drones dropped a canister or canisters that emitted some sort of white smoke. People affected started coughing and having other forms of respiratory distress - which is sort of a common reaction to almost any sort of smoke - but also dizziness, vision problems (focusing problems, double vision), difficulty walking, tremors, and the like which is what has people thinking maybe nerve gas. Maybe.
It is also important to note this is an industrial area. Fighting might have resulted in storage tanks of some sort being hit, releasing toxic chemicals, or stuff like burning plastics could also do the same thing. So people could be sick, but not from a _chemical attack_ but due to chemicals in the environment from something other than deliberate deployment.
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> While I’m willing to bet Russia will use chemical weapons if it suits their plans, I don’t think this is an example of it. Chemical weapons are area weapons. They are not made to drop a small amount on a few soldiers. And it’s not like Russia needs to do a test run. They have used chemical weapons all over the place.
Yes, _ideally_ chemical weapons are denial-of-area attacks but deploying them doesn’t always work as intended.
Right now it’s not possible for you or me to know for sure what happened. Like I said, governments are trying to figure out what happened using information and people we don’t have access to.
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4447 "2022-04-12T21:16:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> So people could be sick, but not from a _chemical attack_ but due to chemicals in the environment from something other than deliberate deployment.
This is more what I’m thinking. You wouldn’t even need an industrial area, there are plenty of things in a typical house that are toxic when they burn.
I know there is a war going on, but damn it’s hard to get confirmation on so many things, especially stuff going out on platforms like twitter. I hope one of the NATO countries thought to ship a bunch of gas masks at least. I have an awful feeling they and other NBC gear may be needed.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4448 "2022-04-12T21:19:06Z")
I’m surprised Medvedchuk hasn’t found a way to leave Ukraine. He was expected to lead a coup of the government. Maybe serve as Putin’s puppet leader?
I doubt Putin will negotiate for Medvedchuk. I don’t think Putin has strong ties to anyone. Except his personal family.
IMHO It is crucial to remove this viper from Kyiv. He knows the names of many Ukrainian pro-Russia supporters.
Guardian blog
> [@](#):
>
> The official Twitter account of Ukraine’s Security Service, the country’s law enforcement agency, posted on Twitter another picture of Viktor Medvedchuk, Putin’s closest ally in [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) who had been in hiding since he fled his house arrest at the beginning of the invasion.
>
> In the tweet, the Security Service says that Medvedchuk was wearing a Ukrainian army uniform as a “disguise”.
[ ](https://i.insider.com/6255c6ba9c862b00181a8bb6?width=700)
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4449 "2022-04-12T21:56:04Z")
Well, I thought they’d want Medvedchuk permanently gone. Imho he’ll always be a danger to Ukraine. Ayatollah Khomeini was in exile in France for 15 years. Look at what he did.
Guardian blog
> [@](#):
>
> ## Zelenskiy proposes swap for Putin ally for Ukrainian fighters
>
> Following news that Ukrainians had captured oligarch Viktor Medvedchuk – Putin’s closest ally in [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) – Zelenskiy proposed releasing him to Russia in exchange for Ukrainians captured by Russian forces.
>
> “I propose to the Russian Federation to exchange this guy of yours” for Ukrainian men and women in Russian captivity, he said in an address posted to Telegram.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4450 "2022-04-12T22:00:08Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#):
>
> If only he had been cackling evilly. That’d be better. Instead he was doing a cutesy, youthful laugh like, “Look at my carefree, wacky, Nazi salute! Ah life is a fun-fair!!”
That looks more like the Romulan salute from Star Trek to me, which I imagine has something to do with a Roman salute. So he denies the Nazi salute, says it was from Star Trek, and the press reports that he denies the Nazi salute.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4451 "2022-04-12T22:04:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> My Estonian acquaintance has been telling me that tension has been rising in the Baltics since the invasion began, which isn’t a puzzling development, really. Between the war and the rhetoric coming out of Russia I’d be surprised if things _weren’t_ getting tense there.
When asked what would begin the next war, the fired Bismarck replied, “Some damn silly thing in the Balkans”.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4452 "2022-04-12T23:06:06Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> > [@Broomstick](#):
> >
> > So people could be sick, but not from a _chemical attack_ but due to chemicals in the environment from something other than deliberate deployment.
>
> This is more what I’m thinking. You wouldn’t even need an industrial area, there are plenty of things in a typical house that are toxic when they burn.
Sure.
And sometimes it’s even the same toxin.
Zyklon B, the infamous killer chemical used by the Nazis at their death camps, is essentially hydrogen cyanide (there’s some other stuff, but the active ingredient is HCN). And burning plastics can also generate HCN. So even the existence of something like a particular chemical is not definite proof of “chemical attack”, it could simply be proof of a house fire. Or a burning car, which I’m sure Ukraine has plenty of at this point.
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> I know there is a war going on, but damn it’s hard to get confirmation on so many things, especially stuff going out on platforms like twitter. I hope one of the NATO countries thought to ship a bunch of gas masks at least. I have an awful feeling they and other NBC gear may be needed.
Gas masks are only effective against some chemicals, and only partially effective against others. It might save your lungs against a blistering agent but not your skin or eyesight. There are a number of nerve agents that can be absorbed through the skin so a gas mask isn’t of much use and it’s unlikely someone untrained could properly use full NBC gear/suits.
I’m hoping some of the worst unconventional things aren’t used in this war, but they are possibilities.
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [April 12, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4453 "2022-04-12T23:42:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> > [@Broomstick](#):
> >
> > My Estonian acquaintance has been telling me that tension has been rising in the Baltics since the invasion began, which isn’t a puzzling development, really. Between the war and the rhetoric coming out of Russia I’d be surprised if things _weren’t_ getting tense there.
>
> When asked what would begin the next war, the fired Bismarck replied, “Some damn silly thing in the Balkans”.
Imagine old Otto’s expression when he rolls into the Balkans and is told Estonia is 1000 miles in the opposite direction.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4454 "2022-04-13T00:26:12Z")
>
>
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4455 "2022-04-13T01:39:19Z")
Putin doesn’t seem to have any skin in this game. Maybe if a bomb went off near his family the reality of what he’s doing would sink in.
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4456 "2022-04-13T02:16:45Z")
> **[Putin moves 'missile systems' to Finland border in threat against Nato expansion](https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/russia-moves-military-equipment-towards-finland-after-nato-warning-16451495/)**
>
> The missiles have been seen heading towards Helinski.
Here we go. Finland should join NATO _tomorrow_. And NATO should waive the rules and admit Ukraine, Moldova, and Georgia the day after, then roll tanks (and AA and missles, etc, etc). And if ~~Hitler~~ Putin then goes on to trigger Article 5, so be it. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. This is 1938 all over again and we can only have “peace in our time” when the devil is stopped in his tracks. Otherwise our European Dopers should get ready to move to America or live under the Russian heel.
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### Author:  [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4457 "2022-04-13T02:19:19Z")
I just finished reading the Vogue interview with Olena Zelenska. Of course President Zelenskly has an amazing and brave wife. She’s a class act and manages to walk like she doesn’t have the big brass balls we all know are clanking.
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4458 "2022-04-13T03:33:43Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#):
>
> Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
I’m afraid you’ve got it backwards. It’s better to live on your feet than die on your knees.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4460 "2022-04-13T03:37:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Gas masks are only effective against some chemicals, and only partially effective against others. It might save your lungs against a blistering agent but not your skin or eyesight.
Most gas masks go over your eyes.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4461 "2022-04-13T05:01:42Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> It’s better to live on your feet than die on your knees.
If given the option, sure.
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4462 "2022-04-13T06:47:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Most gas masks go over your eyes.
Yes, this is the one I was [issued](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_field_protective_mask). Todays M50 are much better in design and protection.
And this [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/12/pentagon-ukraine-weapons/) says full NBC gear may be on the way.
> Preliminary plans circulating among government officials and lawmakers in Washington also included Mi-17 helicopters, howitzer cannons, coastal defense drones and _protective suits to safeguard personnel in the event of a chemical, biological or nuclear attack_, the officials said, though they cautioned that it was not immediately clear if all of those items would end up in the final aid package.
Looks like the helos are out for sure, hopefully the rest arrives quickly.
I should say NBC stands for nuclear, biological and chemical protection. If Ukrainians are not trained to fight in these, the sooner they get them the better. They are somewhat awkward to get used to and can be claustrophobic to some. The more practice they have suiting up the better.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4463 "2022-04-13T07:52:39Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> And this [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/12/pentagon-ukraine-weapons/) says full NBC gear may be on the way.
Full [MOPP suits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOPP_(protective_gear)) (level 4), despite manufacturer’s assertions, are awkward and hot. They’re better than the alternative but barely.
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### Author:  [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)
#### Post date: [April 13, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4464 "2022-04-13T12:21:13Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> I’m afraid you’ve got it backwards. It’s better to live on your feet than die on your knees.
…and a tip o’ the hat to Joseph Heller.
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