# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 225
### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4545 "2022-04-14T12:47:06Z")
> [@Al128](#):
>
> hugely expensive war assets are nowadays more of a burden than an asset to have?
…if you have access to the modern weapons needed to kill them.
How well would Ukraine be doing if they didn’t have Javelins and the like? Tanks and ships are still useful when invading an unsupported lesser power.
So the lesson should be, make sure your target really is isolated from international support before you invade.
Putin probably thought that was true of Ukraine, but then, Putin seems to be believing his own bullshit lately. So I guess that’s the other lesson? Don’t believe your own bullshit.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4546 "2022-04-14T12:49:39Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> So the lesson should be, make sure your target really is isolated from international support before you invade.
>
> Putin probably thought that was true of Ukraine, but then, Putin seems to be believing his own bullshit lately. So I guess that’s the other lesson? Don’t believe your own bullshit.
But his whole thing started because Putin thought that NATO was out to get him. Why is he so surprised that it’s using the war he started to get him?
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4547 "2022-04-14T12:53:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> But his whole thing started because Putin thought that NATO was out to get him. Why is he so surprised that it’s using the war he started to get him?
Because Putin _also_ thinks that NATO and western democracy in general is weak and feckless. That we’re great at talking tough in peacetime, but will run away when the Manly Men start actually shooting.
The only way Putin’s war in Ukraine makes any sense at all is if Putin really thought Ukraine would just roll over for him, and that no one outside Ukraine would risk helping Ukraine.
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### Author:  [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4548 "2022-04-14T13:00:53Z")
[Reuters is saying the ship is being towed back to port.](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-flagship-black-sea-fleet-badly-damaged-by-blast-2022-04-14/)
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4549 "2022-04-14T13:15:42Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> The battlecruiser Admiral Nakhimov is also undergoing repair and refit. So it looks like there’s only one active Russian warship larger than the Moskva, which is the battlecruiser Pyotr Velikiy, currently with the Northern Fleet in the Arctic.
It’s so odd how Turkey controls what Russia can or cannot bring to bear in the Black Sea. I’m glad they do, though.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4550 "2022-04-14T13:18:15Z")
> [@psychobunny](#):
>
> Can I just say that not knowing military tactics, it seems like “Hey! Look over there! Tricked you and hit you from the other side” should be something that military people are prepared for.
There is such a thing as over-saturating the defense system, especially with the close-in, last ditch ones.
One drone shouldn’t do it.
> [@Kelevra](#):
>
> Reuters is saying the ship is being towed back to port.
Sometimes a mission-kill suffices.
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### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4551 "2022-04-14T13:20:47Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> One drone shouldn’t do it.
What if it is painted in bright, shiny colors? Possibly with Chinese markings on it so they think it is a friendly?
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4552 "2022-04-14T13:23:28Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> The only way Putin’s war in Ukraine makes any sense at all is if Putin really thought Ukraine would just roll over for him, and that no one outside Ukraine would risk helping Ukraine.
Which is more or less what happened in 2014. He based his assessment on that, as well as his general disregard for the West. Russia apparently lacked good humint on Ukrainian intentions.
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> Sometimes a mission-kill suffices.
It takes a really long time to fix a severely damaged warship. A big cruiser like Moskva is basically like a very large apartment building except it floats and is actually more complicated and that ain’t a thing you fix quickly. From the perspective of this war, Moskva might as well have sank.
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### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4553 "2022-04-14T13:29:35Z")
> [@Al128](#):
>
> word on russian media is that the Moscva successfully destroyed 2 ukr. rockets.
…by hitting them with the side of the ship?
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4554 "2022-04-14T13:31:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> He based his assessment on that, as well as his general disregard for the West.
Of course, he managed to forget that he’d also spent years prior to that preparing the ground in Crimea, so that it would be easy for Russian troops to invade, and hard for Ukrainian troops to defend. This involved both overt and covert support for “Russian Separatists” in the area, and fixing the vote to make it look like a majority of residents _wanted_ Russia to intervene. There was just enough BS in the air that, by the time people realized what was going on, Russia was in control on the ground, and getting them out would have been extremely costly.
He didn’t do any of that for the rest of Ukraine. In fact, rather than having a puppet government acting like it wanted Russian intervention, the government of Ukraine had become more independent, with rooting out just that sort of pro-Russian corruption being a major goal of the new government. This was the sort of change that would make an invasion harder, not easier. And yet, somehow none of that penetrated deeply enough to affect Putin’s calculus.
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### Author:  [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4555 "2022-04-14T13:34:19Z")
This is certainly wonderful news. Several hundred dead all at once will be very hard for the Russians to sweep under the rug.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4556 "2022-04-14T13:41:00Z")
Aside from the fact I have no desire for Russian sailors to die - the important kill is the ship - it’s pretty likely that the casualties were far lower than that.
When HMS Sheffield was hit by an Exocet in the Falklands War, I think 19, 20 men were killed. The reason the ship was lost is that the common effect of an anti-ship missile is starting fires that cannot be controlled, resulting in - as we saw with Moskva - the crew having to get in the lifeboats. HMS Glamorgan was knocked out of the war by an Exocet that killed 14 men. A few years later USS Stark was hit by TWO Exocets; 37 men died. Stark was not lost but was knocked out of action for a long time.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4557 "2022-04-14T14:29:00Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> Because Putin _also_ thinks that NATO and western democracy in general is weak and feckless. That we’re great at talking tough in peacetime, but will run away when the Manly Men start actually shooting.
Yep. One common defect in the thought process of those immersed in his sort of social/political culture… even back in Communist times their propagandists would always be going on about “the decadent Capitalists”. There’s a long standing thread to look down on the West as morally inferior. Especially those of a liberal democratic inclination (because, of course, “what kind of man just accepts _losing_?”) So in their eyes we perfidiously advance by corrupting other societies into embracing our degenerate values because we’re not manly enough to prevail by fear.
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### Author:  [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4558 "2022-04-14T14:45:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> It’s so odd how Turkey controls what Russia can or cannot bring to bear in the Black Sea. I’m glad they do, though.
One of the reasons Russia fought a number of wars with Turkey (then the Ottoman Empire) in the 18th/19th century was the Russian desire for a ‘warm-weather’ port with direct access to the Mediterranean and the subsequent oceans. Between most of their ports being in the North and via the Baltic or those in the south affected by Turkey’s control of the Straits, Russia has never been a major naval power, either military or commercial (and no, didn’t forget Vladivostok, besides being cold it’s thousands of miles from the main population/commerce centers). And remember the Rus were establishing that port in Syria not so long ago…
I suspect that should Russia (however improbable this appears now) manages to take over Ukraine, pressure on Turkey to ‘come to an agreement’ will increase. Like Lord Palmerston said many years ago and is still true today (IMHO–YMMV):
> [@](#):
>
> We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.
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### Author:  [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4559 "2022-04-14T14:46:11Z")
Those have been the perks of controlling Constantinople since ancient times. (and Troy before that)
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### Author:  [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4560 "2022-04-14T17:00:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#):
>
> > [@Al128](#):
> >
> > word on russian media is that the Moscva successfully destroyed 2 ukr. rockets.
>
> …by hitting them with the side of the ship?
I repeatedly hit that man in the fist with my face!
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4561 "2022-04-14T17:27:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#):
>
> There’s a long standing thread to look down on the West as morally inferior.
The perverted thought process is really fascinating. They are a repressive tyranny and kleptocracy rife with corruption with barely even a pretense of democracy, they just invaded a peaceful sovereign nation for no reason except territorial gain and empire-building and committed terrible atrocities against innocent civilians and children in the process, and constantly lie to their own people about that and everything else, and _we in the West_ are supposed to be the morally inferior ones! The only way this works is if their entire belief system is built on a complete web of lies, totally disconnected from reality.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4562 "2022-04-14T17:29:48Z")
Where are satellite Images of the Moskva? They will help identify the damage.
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### Author:  [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4563 "2022-04-14T17:34:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Aside from the fact I have no desire for Russian sailors to die - the important kill is the ship
I cannot imagine why. It is an elderly ship and fighting in what is mostly a land-war.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> it’s pretty likely that the casualties were far lower than that
We will see. If Russian damage control is as inefficient as I suspect, there may be a large body count.
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4564 "2022-04-14T17:39:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Where are satellite Images of the Moskva? They will help identify the damage.
Heavy cloud cover and storms in the area. The US does have images but so far hasn’t tweeted any while sitting on the shitter. [Images might reveal US capabilities, classified information]
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