# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 233
### Author:  [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4705 "2022-04-17T14:30:43Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Since the video was put out by the Russian state, one cannot trust that it is the crew of the Moskva, or whether all the people in it are crew of the Moskva. Either way, it looks like less than a hundred people (out of a crew of 500).
Yeah, when I saw that pic, I figured it had about 60 folks in it. So if nothing else, it lends itself to the idea that the casualty rate was nearly 90%.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4706 "2022-04-17T14:44:21Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> There is terrible newsreel video of the sinking of HMS Barham in WWII, which shows what happens when a ship’s ammunition explodes.
Here a couple photos. As you might guess, while the ship was left surprisingly intact, for the crew a magazine explosion is not a survivable event.
[https://uboat.net/media/gallery/photos/barh4th.jpg](https://uboat.net/media/gallery/photos/barh4th.jpg)
[ ](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aM9CeasUOz0/XGj_3A74naI/AAAAAAACV24/f--rn0K1hX42C0pIpngwd7FZxO2jyilPACLcBGAs/s640/HMS-Barham_25-November_1941_worldwartwo.filminspector.com_7.jpg)
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4707 "2022-04-17T14:50:23Z")
Those photos are the wrong way round, sequentially.
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4708 "2022-04-17T15:55:56Z")
Indeed. Re: _HMS Barham_, here is the video in question (possibly the sound effects were added later). You will see men standing on the hull as the ship capsizes, and you will know that the bulk of them could not possibly have survived as you will see the explosion and the immediate aftermath. Which to me is disturbing enough (even if there is no sign of gore) to warrant a spoiler:
[for the ink.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=YdrISbwy_zI)
That’s about as much of the ship as you will see in the explosion. It only gets worse from there.
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4709 "2022-04-17T16:04:56Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Those photos are the wrong way round, sequentially.
Oops. You’re right. It’s been a while since I’d seen the film and I’d forgotten the explosion was some minutes after the torpedo strike. A better example might be _Arizona_ which basically broke in two after her magazine exploded. While 30% of her crew survived the vast majority were not on board for the attack ,it being a Sunday in port. Of those who were onboard, over 95% were killed.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4710 "2022-04-17T16:12:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Hasbro needs to come out with a Ukrainian edition of Battleship incorporating the voice of Putin saying “you sunk my battleship”
Milton Bradley. 😉
Sorry for the Facebook link. Rogue Nasa says, 'We’ve been preparing for years, Putin… 🤔 ’
[https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=531154578383685&set=a.204557454376734](https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=531154578383685&set=a.204557454376734)
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4711 "2022-04-17T16:19:57Z")
[[Album] imgur.com  ](https://imgur.com/a/7FgrFxb)
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4712 "2022-04-17T16:56:33Z")
There’s a Revell Moskova model. It’s an open ocean on a Revell kit box.
Re the Barham, there’s separate explosions of the boilers [white], high explosive projectiles [black] and slightly later - bright flash burning of propellant stores. The projectile and propellant storage magazines were normally separate on capital ships. Propellant degrades [will spontaneously explode] as the chemical stabilizer is consumed. Capital ships would have an onboard laboratory to measure stabilizer content.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4713 "2022-04-17T17:47:09Z")
A 2nd British man has been captured by the Russians. Aiden Aslin has a Ukrainian fiancee and holds dual citizenship in Britain and Ukraine. Shaun Pinner is married and has been in the Ukrainian marines for several years. They aren’t volunteer foreign fighters that recently came to fight. But they’ll still get singled out.
Every soldier has to decide for themselves if capture and years of mistreatment is worth remaining alive. I suspect a lot of soldiers reserve one bullet to avoid capture. It’s a horrifying decision to make.
Imho there’s very little chance any captured foreigner fighters will ever be released by Russia. They’ve committed so many atrocities that I can’t see them showing any interest in human life.
> **[British man captured in Ukraine reportedly pictured beaten and handcuffed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/14/british-man-captured-in-ukraine-reportedly-pictured-beaten-and-handcuffed)**
>
> Diplomats working to find Aiden Aslin, who was forced to surrender to Russian troops with his unit in Mariupol
> **[Second British soldier captured in Mariupol is paraded on Russian TV](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/17/second-british-soldier-captured-ukraine-mariupol-paraded-shaun-pinner-russian-tv)**
>
> Propaganda video shows Shaun Pinner, believed to have moved to Ukraine four years ago
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4714 "2022-04-17T18:58:33Z")
Personally, I would have preferred a link to what the Russians are currently showing rather than the 41 minute video about the Falklands - I dunno, perhaps you could have indicated the most relevant time stamps on that? Not everyone wants to sit through 40 minutes of video.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4715 "2022-04-17T19:15:15Z")
Do you think the Ukrainians are capable of mounting a insurgency similar to what the US faced in Fallujah? Where our troops had to fight building to building? There was always the problem of insurgents reentering buildings as our troops moved forward.
Russia of course isn’t constrained like our guys were. US soldiers couldn’t demolish buildings that had insurgents. US forces were expected to go into the buildings.
Mariupol will be the first test. Whatever forces are left will have to break up into small groups of men. Maybe 5 men? Spread out across the city into the buildings. So the Russians can never capture or kill more than that in any skirmish.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4716 "2022-04-17T19:32:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Mariupol will be the first test. Whatever forces are left will have to break up into small groups of men. Maybe 5 men? Spread out across the city into the buildings. So the Russians can never capture or kill more than that in any skirmish.
In Mariupol, the defenders are probably safest being in their Azovstal iron and steel works plant base, from which they can conduct sally attacks - as long as they have supplies.
> [@](#):
>
> “It’s a city within a city,” said Eduard Basurin, a representative for pro-Russian separatists in the eastern Donetsk region.
>
> “There are several underground levels that date back to Soviet times which you can’t bombard from above. You have to go underground to clean them out, and that will take time.”
>
> Entering the tunnels would be all but impossible for Russian troops, according to Alexander Grinberg, analyst at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security.
>
> “They can try, but they’ll be slaughtered because the defenders of the tunnel will absolutely have the tactical upper hand,” he told AFP.
> **[Mariupol's tunnel warriors seek to slow Russian onslaught](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220413-mariupol-s-tunnel-warriors-seek-to-slow-russian-onslaught)**
>
> As Russian forces close in on the southern Ukrainian port city of Mariupol, a small number of resistance fighters hope to slow them down using a tunnel system below a vast industrial site as their base.
> **[‘Fortress in a city’: steel plant becomes Ukrainian hold-out in Mariupol](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/15/fortress-in-a-city-steel-plant-becomes-ukrainian-redoubt-in-mariupol)**
>
> Outnumbered forces concealed in the vast factory are the eastern city’s last line of defence against the Russian invaders
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4717 "2022-04-17T19:41:10Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Mariupol will be the first test. Whatever forces are left will have to break up into small groups of men. Maybe 5 men? Spread out across the city into the buildings. So the Russians can never capture or kill more than that in any skirmish.
I strongly suspect that armed uniform resistance will be obliterated. Regardless, the insurgency will, as it often does, have to come largely from the civilian population.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4718 "2022-04-17T19:42:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Do you think the Ukrainians are capable of mounting a insurgency similar to what the US faced in Fallujah?
Certainly, but why would they? Ukraine still controls enormous amounts of ground from which they can fight Russia in a manner that is both coordinated and supported by lines of supply. Pumping resources into an urban insurgency might not be wise expenditure of blood and treasure. The Iraqi insurgents fought that way because that was the only fight they had available to them.
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### Author:  [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4719 "2022-04-17T20:02:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Entering the tunnels would be all but impossible for Russian troops, according to Alexander Grinberg, analyst at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security.
>
> “They can try, but they’ll be slaughtered because the defenders of the tunnel will absolutely have the tactical upper hand,” he told AFP.
unless the russians go chemical in those tunnels… and I have a hunch they will in this scenario … _underground in a besieged city … who will find out if you burn the bodies afterwards ??_ … it’s not that the UN high-commissionaire will be waltzing in anytime soon
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### Author:  [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4720 "2022-04-17T22:38:35Z")
We finally have the first picture of the stricken Moskva:
[ ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQlGQR7WUAwEvNK?format=jpg&name=medium)
…look at that huge storm!
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4721 "2022-04-17T23:00:07Z")
Here’s the original ship from a similar angle:
[ ](https://www.19fortyfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Moskva.jpg)
It looks like the external missile launchers are intact. Are those smoke marks along the side of the ship coming from portholes? Suggestive of a big internal fire.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4722 "2022-04-17T23:09:19Z")
That looks _modestly_ more survivable than the worst-case possibilities. Listing, not capsized. And it looks like they managed to launch all the liferafts. Well, unless they were stolen between then and now…
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4723 "2022-04-17T23:14:17Z")
Yeah, the photo must be from the following day, with everyone evacuated from the ship. It makes the parade of the less than a hundred sailors look strange. What happened to the other four hundred crew members?
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [April 17, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4724 "2022-04-17T23:21:59Z")
If you’re right about the smoke marks from the portholes (which would also fit with the rumors about the ship having poor internal containment and the sailors having poor firefighting training), one could imagine hundreds either dead or severely injured just from the fires. There’s a pretty wide range between 50 dead (probably a bare minimum based on the explosion) and 450 dead (a seeming upper bound from a confirmed ~50 rescues).
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