# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 239
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4825 "2022-04-21T09:29:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> Yeah, I’m now reading that no jets were sent, only spare parts to rehab jets on the ground in Ukraine.
_Technically_… a fighter jet is “just” a collection of correctly assembled spare parts…
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4826 "2022-04-21T09:32:42Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> The air war here seems inexplicable. I don’t think I’ve seen a good explanation for the lack of air superiority on either side. News reporting on it is next to non-existent.
I suspect surface-to-air missiles have been a major part of why the air war has been so sparse. The Ukrainians demonstrated an ability to shoot down enemy aircraft very early on.
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4827 "2022-04-21T09:34:57Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> There are a lot of different stories on this right now. From what I can tell, the Ukrainians received parts to make twenty damaged MiG29s flyable again. The confusion seems to be that the US reportedly has twenty MiG29s that they purchased from Moldova a couple of decades ago and gave Ukraine these twenty aircraft to scavenge parts off. I guess we wait and see what more info comes out.
I would venture a guess 3 decade old aircraft which have been sitting in some hanger since the 1990’s aren’t really useful.
OTH, they could be used as a source of spares and get the current lot flying for longer.
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4828 "2022-04-21T09:38:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> I suspect surface-to-air missiles have been a major part of why the air war has been so sparse. The Ukrainians demonstrated an ability to shoot down enemy aircraft very early on.
No. Outside of MANPADS which are a persistent threat, nothing in the Ukrainian inventory is something that would bother the Russians very long. For some unfathomable reason they have consistently held back and when they have attacked, have done so in contravention of their long established doctrine. It very puzzling.
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### Author:  [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4829 "2022-04-21T11:26:55Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> No. Outside of MANPADS which are a persistent threat, nothing in the Ukrainian inventory is something that would bother the Russians very long. For some unfathomable reason they have consistently held back and when they have attacked, have done so in contravention of their long established doctrine. It very puzzling.
my guess:
in jet airplanes the russians live the same problems we have seen in their low-tech-diesel-trucks (w/ or w/o cannons on top, wheeled or tracked) but squared or raised to the 3rd power.
hugely more complex systems, probably in the same dire condition to begin with… which _tend do fail catastrophically and quite visible to the eye in mid air_ (and the ukr. claiming they shot them down). In a failing tank, you just hop out and run away - and there are probably 100s of those cases documented, in a plane - not so much
(anybody remember their $20mill helicopters with the walmart gps handhelds strapped in prominent position?)
case in point: the russians have STRONG reasons not to use them, otherwise they’d use them - this might have to do with their perception that they might have to fight more wars later on
again, pure armchair-general-speculation coming from an ex-Covid-19-expert 😉
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4830 "2022-04-21T12:02:59Z")
> [@Al128](#):
>
> case in point: the russians have STRONG reasons not to use them, otherwise they’d use them - this might have to do with their perception that they might have to fight more wars later on
I’d agree with this. The biggest outcome of this war, regardless of who “wins” it, or how it ends, is that the perception of Russia as a powerhouse has been destroyed. Considering how desperately Putin wants to look “strong”, if they had the capacity to use their air assets, they surely would be.
They’re not using them because they can’t use them. Some combination of corruption, incompetence, insolvency and fear of Ukrainian anti-air capabilities is keeping them largely on the ground.
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4831 "2022-04-21T13:11:45Z")
I have begun reading Daily Kos for war updates. Not the comments, much less the “community content” which is 95% dross, nearly as stupid as the fascist screamers on the other side, but the columns by Kos himself and a couple of paid commentators like Mark Sumner, which seem remarkably to the point and informed. Kos is a vet who appears to have very relevant expertise, and a concise, intelligent writing style. Recommend.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4832 "2022-04-21T13:14:49Z")
>
[ ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQwBED3XEAgkP7Y?format=jpg&name=900x900)
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4833 "2022-04-21T14:20:07Z")
In other words - instead of flinging Russia bodies at a fortified position they’re going to try to starve out the occupants.
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4834 "2022-04-21T14:33:16Z")
Major shift in position by Putin as he meets with Shoigu at very small table.
[ ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ3yNTsVcAU7qi0?format=jpg&name=small)
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4835 "2022-04-21T14:36:32Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> Outside of MANPADS which are a persistent threat, nothing in the Ukrainian inventory is something that would bother the Russians very long.
I haven’t heard much about Ukraine’s anti-aircraft missile defences. I’ve heard about Stingers, but my impression is that those are short-range and are more useful against helicopters than fighter jets. Ukraine does have S-300s. Even though Russia seems to be knocking them out, Ukraine apparently has enough to make Russia think twice about flying over the country. In addition:
- [Norway has given Ukraine around 100 French-made Mistral anti-air missiles](https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/04/20/norway-ukraine-anti-air-missiles/)
- [U.K. to Supply Stormer Anti-Aircraft Armored Missile Launcher to Ukraine](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-19/uk-to-supply-stormer-armoured-vehicles-to-ukraine-as-west-steps-up-support)
In other news, [Romania suspends military MIG-21 flights, to speed up F-16 purchase](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/romania-suspends-military-mig-21-flights-speed-up-f-16-purchase-2022-04-15/).
Romania’s MiG-21s are not your grandfather’s Fishbeds. They’ve been extensively upgraded and are quite capable aircraft. Romania grounded them due to a ‘high accident rate’. I don’t know if there is something going on mechanically, or just that flying fighter jets is dangerous and F-16s are more forgiving. But hey, if the MiG-21s are just sitting on the ramp, maybe Ukraine could make use of them?
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### Author:  [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4836 "2022-04-21T15:03:58Z")
I have been thinking of the recent photos of fake Russian aircraft. They may be decoys coming out of storage to protect against a possible Ukrainian attack. Or not.
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4837 "2022-04-21T15:06:40Z")
Couple of mysterious fires in Russia today. Russia’s “Research Institute of Aerospace Defense Troops” known for the S-400 and Iskander in Tver is on fire and likely a complete loss. 5 dead and 20+ wounded so far.
Speaking of things on fire in Russia - the Dmitrievsky chemical plant, the ‘largest producer of industrial solvents in Eastern Europe’ seems to be in smoke and flames…
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### Author:  [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4838 "2022-04-21T15:07:09Z")
US giving Ukraine lots of artillery in latest package:
>
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4839 "2022-04-21T15:08:06Z")
What they need is the ability to deploy autonomous weapons from the air against missile and artillery assets. That requires a coordinated attack to establish air superiority. Ukraine doesn’t begin to have the aircraft or high-tech weapons that go with them. A single type of fighter jet would need to be able to engage other fighters, jam radar, attack anti-aircraft batteries, and deploy air-to-ground weapons to back up troops for a start. It takes specialized aircraft and weapons to do that. I doubt Ukraine’s Mig-29s have that capacity.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4840 "2022-04-21T15:14:55Z")
Wish we’d give Ukraine lots of mobile Paladins too, and Excalibur Increment-III.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4841 "2022-04-21T15:25:29Z")
> **[Romanian Air Force Supends Flight Activites With The MiG-21 LanceR](https://theaviationist.com/2022/04/15/roaf-mig-21-grounded/)**
>
> Given their "considerably high accident rate", all the Romanian MiG-21 LanceR aircraft have been grounded. The Romanian Air Force has suspended all the
> The MiG 21 LanceR is the upgraded avionics and weapons systems version of the [MiG-21 Fishbed](https://theaviationist.com/2014/04/28/israeli-mig-21-007/), developed by Elbit Systems and Aerostar Bacău for the[Romanian Air Force](https://www.facebook.com/ForteleAerieneRomane). The first LanceR flew in 1996 and was a LanceR A version. The LanceR program saw the upgrade of a total of 114 MiG 21 airframes in three versions: the ground attack version (LanceR A), the two seater trainer version with ground attack capabilities (LanceR B) and the air superiority version (LanceR C). The upgrade aimed at making the old Cold War planes capable to use both eastern and western weapons systems, mainly focused in the cockpit configuration with the introduction of modern avionics, HOTAS and NATO compatible weapon systems. However, despite the upgrades, the MiG-21 LanceR remains a quite old aircraft mainly used to carried out QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) duties under the NATO control network by way of the Combined Air Operations Center in Torrejon.
[This guy also thinks the MiGs could be given to Ukraine](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/romania-should-give-the-mig-21-lancers-it-just-grounded-to-ukraine).
> While MiG-21 Fishbeds may seem like somewhat of an ancient fighter aircraft, and they are to some degree, many of those still in active inventory are anything but equal these days. Some of these aircraft have gone through deep upgrades, outfitting them with western radars, avionics, electronic countermeasures, helmet-mounted displays, and more. While they may look very unassuming, what you get is a package that is very easy to maintain in the field and can provide high sortie rates, while also being remarkably capable. This is especially true when these aircraft are paired with creative tactics that accentuate their positive attributes — such as their small size and signature — and minimizes their deficiencies. These tactics can often include pairing the little MiGs with more powerful and larger fighter aircraft. Mix in electronic warfare and you have a remarkably deadly capability for being so inexpensive.
A poster on another message board I just found says, ‘A typical combat air-to-air load consist of- 2 fuel tanks under the wings plus Python 3 missiles or the Matra R550 (Python 3/ Matra R550 - depends which AFB the aircraft belongs to).’
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### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4842 "2022-04-21T15:45:50Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> Some combination of corruption, incompetence, insolvency and fear of Ukrainian anti-air capabilities is keeping them largely on the ground.
And if i know anything about jet jocks – regardless of which country they fly for – their frustration is greater than their fear of death.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4843 "2022-04-21T15:46:10Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#):
>
> Major shift in position by Putin as he meets with Shoigu at very small table.
>
> [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ3yNTsVcAU7qi0?format=jpg&name=small](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ3yNTsVcAU7qi0?format=jpg&name=small)
Putin is _really_ hanging onto that table. His posture is… slumped. Crappy. From a guy who in the past has usually been the definition of upright and fit. He clothes seem a bit large and baggy on him. He doesn’t look good. Is he at a smaller table because he’s not strong enough to project his voice 20 feet anymore?
I discounted the “Putin in poor health” rumors before but, assuming that is a recent picture I’m wondering if maybe he really is in bad health/dying right now.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4844 "2022-04-21T15:47:09Z")
> [@smithsb](#):
>
> Couple of mysterious fires in Russia today. Russia’s “Research Institute of Aerospace Defense Troops” known for the S-400 and Iskander in Tver is on fire and likely a complete loss. 5 dead and 20+ wounded so far.
>
> Speaking of things on fire in Russia - the Dmitrievsky chemical plant, the ‘largest producer of industrial solvents in Eastern Europe’ seems to be in smoke and flames…
Interesting. Where is this being reported?
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