# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 247
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4985 "2022-04-23T22:16:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Hard to see any set of conditions that gives a Russian victory at this point. > > War of attrition? Ukraine wins that one. Ukraine is the one with many millions of willing-to-fight men and women, getting a steady flow of weapons and supplies from NATO while Russia is running out of everything. I don’t see how this is true. The Ukraine is slowly being reduced to rubble. They might be winning military victories but it is their country that is being destroyed, their civilians that are dying or being systematically kidnapped by the thousands if not tens or even hundreds of thousands. It is the Ukraine that cannot keep this up. Millions have already fled the country, this level of destruction and misery cannot but take a toll eventually. Hopefully the Russian military crumbles first, but it is not a given, honestly it is not even the most likely scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4986 "2022-04-23T22:29:03Z")
Hard to see any set of conditions that Russia will be forgiven at this point. Maybe giving up previous land taken and pay for some of the damage done. And a video of Putin dropped into a live volcano. With audio. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4987 "2022-04-23T22:30:58Z")
One of those that believed “Better dead than Red”. I joined the Navy in the mid 80s. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4988 "2022-04-23T23:01:32Z")
I grew up fearful of the Soviet Union. I didn’t see Russia or Ukraine as separate countries. I thought they were regions within the Soviet Union. Brezhnev was the evil face of the Soviets. I know now he was from Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4989 "2022-04-23T23:32:18Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The Ukraine As I’ve had to have driven into my head, it isn’t “The Ukraine”. It’s just Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4990 "2022-04-24T04:48:11Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Wouldn’t the time they need to bring out all this new weaponry be a month ago? Unless that’s snark. No snark. They don’t really want to escalate this to include the US if they don’t have to. So for now they’re fighting this as a conventional ground war. But it could change. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4991 "2022-04-24T06:43:48Z")
So you’re saying that the Russians have just been _pretending_ to be incompetent buffoons for the past two months? Or are you claiming that the systemic rot that has set into every aspect of their society has somehow stayed out of their military tech sector? Face it: just like with everything else, the Russians talk a big game when it comes to technology, but when push comes to shove they’ll fall laughably short. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4992 "2022-04-24T10:02:59Z")
In the early 1970’s my parents had the opportunity to tour the USSR with other western journalists – carefully supervised of course. At the time it was still a country very much closed to regular American travelers. My father reported his astonishment at how backward and poor, how ugly and sad and dysfunctional it was. His takeaway was that the American fear of Soviet communism and the Soviet military was entirely overblown, more of an excuse for our own military buildup and internal scapegoating than any kind of real threat. He’s always been one of the sharpest political observers I know. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4993 "2022-04-24T13:23:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > the Russians talk a big game when it comes to technology, but when push comes to shove they’ll fall laughably short. They beat the U.S. into space, beat the U.S. to orbit, and even their commercial competitor Elon Musk says they make outstanding engines. Nobody could get to the ISS without Russian space technology. It’s become clear that they have not spent the money on their military that they do on their space program (probably because if you steal from the space program, people will notice), but at least in space technology they do walk the walk. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4994 "2022-04-24T13:25:42Z")
IANA American but I was in the Canadian Navy in the '80s and was in a large, weeks-long NATO exercise in the north Atlantic. On a daily basis we were overflown by Soviet Bear-D MPAs and had a Krivak frigate steaming through the formation of NATO warships (it was a big ASW exercise and there were probably at least 30 ships). Unofficially there didn’t seem to be any hostility on our side; instead we all had a sort-of “hey this is really cool, we get to see some of the other side’s kit up close” attitude. I also worked with folks in the SIGINT community who, while monitoring Soviet comms (a lot of Morse code transmissions) and they told me about unofficial conversations between the counterparts. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4995 "2022-04-24T13:59:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > They beat the U.S. into space, beat the U.S. to orbit, and even their commercial competitor Elon Musk says they make outstanding engines. Nobody could get to the ISS without Russian space technology. Back around 1985 I attended a fund-raiser speech for PBS’ San Jose affiliate by James Burke of _Connections_ fame – he loved Silicon Valley. He was the science reporter for the BBC back in the Apollo and Apollo-Soyuz era and told of having a conversation he’d had with the director of the Soviet space program. When he asked the director what he feared most about western technology, the reply was a description of something like the PC – which weren’t around yet – would be developed. With that kind of computing power on the desk of every engineer and scientist, he said, coupled with the more free flow of information the west had, he didn’t see any way they’d be able to keep up. I thought back on that comment when I was watching the Berlin Wall come down and the subsequent developments leading to the collapse of the Soviet empire. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4996 "2022-04-24T16:38:32Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Russians are using surplus ordinance. Perfect weapon for murdering a large crowd of unprotected civilians. Guardian blog -examinations of bodies in Bucha… > [@](#): > > Pathologists and coroners who are carrying out postmortems on bodies found in mass graves in the region north of Kyiv, where occupying Russian forces have been accused of [atrocities](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/09/with-bloodied-gloves-forensic-teams-uncover-gruesome-secrets-of-bucha-in-ukraine), said they had found small metal darts, called fléchettes, embedded in people’s heads and chests. > > Independent weapons experts who reviewed pictures of the metal arrows found in the bodies, seen by the Guardian, confirmed that they were fléchettes, an anti-personnel weapon widely used during the first world war. > > These small metal darts are contained in tank or field gun shells. **Each shell can contain up to 8,000 fléchettes. Once fired, shells burst when a timed fuse detonates and explodes above the ground.** ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4997 "2022-04-24T19:47:13Z")
I hate to be “that guy,” but is the complaint that they are using flechettes, or that they are using them against civilians? Because flechettes don’t sound much different than the MLRS munitions used by the United States and other nations in which rockets detonate and spray a massive spray of steel shrapnel. If it’s the civilian part that is the atrocity, then surely killing them is an atrocity regardless of what munitions are used? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4998 "2022-04-24T20:26:47Z")
I was thinking of being on the business end of a claymore mine, myself. Of course, those are point-defense and (usually) command detonated rather than being fired “over there.” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/4999 "2022-04-24T21:05:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If it’s the civilian part that is the atrocity, then surely killing them is an atrocity regardless of what munitions are used The shells reportedly have 8,000 fléchettes. Crowds gathered at the beginning of the war. They mistakenly thought they could reason with the soldiers. They share a language. A couple of these shells would clear several hundred protesters off the street. The imagery of 8000 small knives hitting a crowd seems pretty gruesome to me. Violates International laws. I knew the Russians shelled civilians. The fléchettes were an eye opener for me. The description and appearance seems extremely horrific. I know anything the Russians do shouldn’t shock anyone. They’ve repeatedly demonstrated pure evil. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5000 "2022-04-24T21:32:53Z")
I didn’t post the description of Fléchettes. They sound more lethal than typical shrapnel. I wouldn’t want to get hit by either object. 😒 Guardian blog. > [@](#): > > Fléchettes, typically between 3cm and 4cm in length, release from the shell and disperse in a conical arch about 300m wide and 100m long. On impact with a victim’s body, the dart can lose rigidity, bending into a hook, while the arrow’s rear, made of four fins, often breaks away causing a second wound. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5001 "2022-04-24T21:54:28Z")
Back in the day, we used to call them “ambush rounds”. You’d park a tank in an elevated location and have them scan the terrain with their advanced night optics. If they spotted an enemy squad heading toward the border, they’d fire a single flechette round at them from the main gun, taking them all out before they even knew they were spotted. They’re good for open terrain, but once they started using them in cities, they realized that the collateral damage was much too high, and replaced them with more accurate antipersonnel munitions. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5002 "2022-04-24T22:32:59Z")
I think VP Harris should have made the trip. It would have made a statement of support comparable to other NATO leaders. > [@](#): > > ## US officials meet Zelenskiy in Kyiv > > US defense secretary Lloyd Austin and secretary of state Antony Blinken are currently in talks with Volodymyr Zelensky, an advisor told local Ukrainian news outlets. Zelensky is expected to use the meeting to appeal for more US military aid. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5003 "2022-04-24T22:34:28Z")
Frankly, I want to see Biden landing in Kyiv, with F-22s all around, a total in-your-face statement. Putin would howl and stomp and Biden would camp out leisurely with Zelesnky for a week. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2022, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5004 "2022-04-24T23:02:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They’re good for open terrain, but once they started using them in cities, they realized that the collateral damage was much too high, I think for Russia’s purposes, that is a plus. The collateral damage is the point. They are trying to kill as many civilians as possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=246) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=248)