# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 255
### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5145 "2022-04-28T00:18:12Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> I mean, gosh, it’d have to be a magazine explosion or something, but who would design a tank like that???”
A tank designer who fetishizes main gun autoloaders and cripples the safety of ammunition storage in order to accomplish it.
> **[Why Do Russian Tanks Explode Violently When Hit?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2022/04/01/why-do-russian-tanks-explode-violently-when-hit/?sh=7355bbc89fc4)**
>
> Images from Ukraine show Russian tanks completely disintegrated after being hit. The catastrophic losses are the side-effect of a calculated design decision with the T-72 tank.
The diagram towards the bottom of that page shows the arrangement of ammunition and propellant in a T-72, which is also the same in a T-90 and almost the same in a T-80. It’s an unprotected carousel that goes all the way around the turret ring to feed the autoloader and (because of its size and distribution) can’t incorporate blow-out panels to vent ammunition fires. So if the tank is buttoned up, the turret pops into the air like a cork out of a champaign bottle (except no one inside is celebrating any more).
This is the diagram I mean, since Forbes is just copying a Wikipedia diagram. It’s an SVG, though, so it won’t preview here.
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/T72\_crew.svg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/T72_crew.svg)
The ammo and the propellant are the orange and yellow colored cylinders just within the turret ring.
Also, here’s a post by @bump in another Russia-Ukraine War thread that shows the actions of the two types of autoloaders involved.
> [@Are tanks of any use anymore on the modern battlefield?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-tanks-of-any-use-anymore-on-the-modern-battlefield/961813/24):
>
> One thing that most (all?) contemporary Russian tanks have is autoloaders, and as a result, their ammunition is stored in a carousel either in the turret or right below. This makes them hideously vulnerable to having the ammo go up on a penetrating hit, and is a big part of why so many Russian tanks exhibit the “jack-in-the-box effect” when hit (the turret blows up in the air as its ammo explodes). [[image] ](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3efd323c833860980285e2c97b08c54a) Meanwhile most Western tanks still have a dedicated…
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### Author:  [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5146 "2022-04-28T00:34:49Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> \*To give myself a little credit, my somewhat delayed second reaction was “but then again, the faintly visible impressions in the ground look just right, so maybe… legit? I mean, gosh, it’d have to be a magazine explosion or something, but who would design a tank like that???”
a couple of days ago I saw a video with a tank turret inside an apartment of the 5th floor … looks like if properly motivated, those can get quite kinetic
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5147 "2022-04-28T01:03:21Z")
They (T-72 tanks) were referred to as “pop tops” during Desert Storm.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5148 "2022-04-28T01:37:16Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> A tank designer who fetishizes main gun autoloaders and cripples the safety of ammunition storage in order to accomplish it.
I’d be willing to bet it was some sort of Soviet-era doctrinal difference that emphasizes/emphasized smaller, shorter, and nimble tanks with fewer crewmen, over larger, more survivable tanks. It’s not the T-72 alone that has autoloaders and problems with jack-in-the-box effects when hit.
For example, the T-72 has a height of 7’ 4", and the T-90 has a height of 7’3". And the T-64 that the Ukrainians are using is 7’1" high as well. All of them are ex-Soviet basic designs (T-64 evolved into the T-80, T-72 evolved into the T-90).
Not only does the smaller crew mean that for every 12 crewmen, the Soviets/Russians can crew 4 tanks to NATO’s 3, it means that the turret is smaller and therefore can be more armored for the same weight. And since all of them will be sitting (loaders typically stand), it can be shorter as well.
But the price is survivability. We see them blowing up right and left and popping their turrets because the ammo is essentially within the crew compartment and if it’s hit, it blows up the crew and pops the turret.
Meanwhile Western tanks like the M1A2 (8 ft), Challenger 2 (8’ 2"), Leopard II (9.8’) and LeClerc (8.3’) are all at least half a foot taller than the T-72, and more like a foot taller than the T-64. And with the exception of the LeClerc, they all have four crewmen. They all have protected ammo storage that prevents ammo explosions. The cost is in money, extra crewmen and size.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5149 "2022-04-28T01:51:23Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> .
If the turrets are coming off like jack-in-the-boxes then the Ukrainians should play Pop Goes the Wieisel on loud speakers embedded along the roads.
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### Author:  [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5150 "2022-04-28T07:58:22Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> My \*first reaction was “photoshopped,” but apparently this is a thing that Russian tanks have been known for:
>
> [https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/europe/russia-tanks-blown-turrets-intl-hnk-ml/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/europe/russia-tanks-blown-turrets-intl-hnk-ml/index.html)
The first time I saw it in real life, my first thought was " This is just like how tanks blow up in Sgt. Rock comic books." Even when Sgt. Rock would drop a hand grenade into a German tank, the turret would blow straight up in the air. It doesn’t always happen, but it is definitely common.
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> Unfortunately, doesn’t this mean that Ukraine has the same problem?
That’s exactly what this means. Could be some harrowing times coming up in the east if they get into some open field warfare with room for tank maneuvers. Tank wise, the Ukrainians are going to be outnumbered and have the same quality tanks as the Russians. The western anti-tank weapons could play a big role here.
Unfortunately, Russia also has a very good [anti-tank weapon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M133_Kornet) that has even been used somewhat successfully against both the US Abrams and the Israeli Merkava, two top of the line tanks. Open warfare in the east may well boil down to who has the most bodies they can throw in there.
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### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5151 "2022-04-28T08:33:43Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> it is starting to look like Russia is in need of lebensraum
Why? The population is falling by the day.
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5152 "2022-04-28T12:43:23Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#):
>
> Tank wise, the Ukrainians are going to be outnumbered and have the same quality tanks as the Russians.
Between captured and donate tanks, the UKR forces may outnumber the remaining Russian tanks in the theater.
> **[Ukraine Has More Tanks on the Ground Than Russia](https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/04/ukraine-has-more-tanks-on-the-ground-than-russia/)**
>
> An unnamed senior U.S. defense official told reporters this week that Ukraine now has more tanks on the ground than the Russians do.
Total tanks still favor Russia but getting them to Ukraine by depleting every other location [Russia is a big place] is a massive logistic problem - not a Russian strength.
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### Author:  [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5153 "2022-04-28T13:11:21Z")
Real news is scant from the eastern front. I saw yesterday reporting that Russia has [taken several towns](https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/ukraine-russia-war-russia-intensifies-offensive-in-ukraines-east-several-villages-captured-2924237). Russians are adapting and using somewhat smarter tactics that rely on their superior firepower. Ukrainians just don’t (yet) have the firepower to match the Russians.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5154 "2022-04-28T14:41:13Z")
Wish the US would take some bolder risks, such as donating nearly every Javelin in its inventory to Ukraine instead of merely one-third. It’s unlikely the US would find itself in a situation in the near future where it would urgently need to destroy enemy armor but have no airpower with which to do so. It could give Ukraine most of its remaining 13,000 Javelins right now while spending, say, the years 2022-2027 slowly replenishing the stockpile.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5155 "2022-04-28T14:56:07Z")
Interesting analysis of the upcoming Donbas battle from Ukraine’s viewpoint.
The article is a bit optimistic and doesn’t consider Russian artillery and missiles. Ukraine still doesn’t have a decent missile shield.
> [@](#):
>
> In many ways, the plan bears a resemblance to the 1943 Battle of Kursk of World War II. During the battle’s initial phase, the Wehrmacht’s Operation Zitadel envisaged pinching off a 170-kilometer-wide Soviet pocket around the city of Kursk.
>
> Two German strikes from the north and the south were supposed to meet up in the middle, trapping scores of Soviet troops in a giant pocket around Kursk.
> **[EXPLAINER: What to expect from the Battle of Donbas, Russia’s new offensive](https://kyivindependent.com/explainer-what-to-expect-from-the-battle-of-donbas-russias-new-offensive/)**
>
> Ukraine and the world have spent weeks in anticipation of the Battle of Donbas, “the second phase” of Russia’s all-out war on Ukraine.
>
> Now, it seems, the wait is over.
>
> With the drastic intensification of hostilities in Donbas and neighboring areas,...
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5156 "2022-04-28T17:03:01Z")
I was aiming for absurd. Russia is the largest single inhabited patch of dirt on the globe by a wide margin. Ukraine would make them maybe 3% larger. Real estate is quite definitely not something they need more of (except for that location3 thing).
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5157 "2022-04-28T17:13:36Z")
I follow @JackDetsch on Twitter. He is a Pentagon correspondent. Lot of good information on Ukraine aid and the war.
I didn’t know these existed.
>
Seems like a good time for a Ukrainian counterattack. Hit them _hard_ on the roads.
>
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5158 "2022-04-28T17:27:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Wish the US would take some bolder risks, such as donating nearly every Javelin in its inventory to Ukraine instead of merely one-third. It’s unlikely the US would find itself in a situation in the near future where it would urgently need to destroy enemy armor but have no airpower with which to do so.
Taiwan. China is watching us burn through inventory.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5159 "2022-04-28T17:31:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> Wish the US would take some bolder risks, such as donating nearly every Javelin in its inventory to Ukraine instead of merely one-third. It’s unlikely the US would find itself in a situation in the near future where it would urgently need to destroy enemy armor but have no airpower with which to do so. It could give Ukraine most of its remaining 13,000 Javelins right now while spending, say, the years 2022-2027 slowly replenishing the stockpile.
Assuming this war is going to last at least another several months, I’d suggest going bolder than that. Set up a training area in Germany or Poland and train some Ukrainian soldiers in operating the M1A2 Abrams tanks and A10 Warthog bombers, and then send them a whole bunch of those.
ETA. And some F/A-18 Hornets to protect the Warthogs.
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5160 "2022-04-28T17:36:31Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> Set up a training area in Germany or Poland and train some Ukrainian soldiers in operating the M1A2 Abrams tanks and A10 Warthog bombers, and then send them a whole bunch of those.
You mean carve out discrete areas that Putin can bomb while insisting it’s not an escalation, it’s just a measured response to western provocation?
Not saying someone in government won’t get the idea, just saying sometimes a nebulous and shifting commitment is better than discrete and unambiguous.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5161 "2022-04-28T17:40:09Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> You mean carve out discrete areas that Putin can bomb while insisting it’s not an escalation, it’s just a measured response to western provocation?
>
> Not saying someone in government won’t get the idea, just saying sometimes a nebulous and shifting commitment is better than discrete and unambiguous.
If Putin bombs Germany or Poland, it’s be game over for him. Forget about training Ukrainians to operate those weapons. Just send in Americans and it’ll be over within a week.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5162 "2022-04-28T17:44:53Z")
Boris said some men are being trained in the Britain. He’s been criticized for publicly talking about it.
Training is a necessity for modern weapon systems.
> **[Ukrainian troops begin training in Britain as Johnson steps up support](https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-troops-begin-training-britain-210238392.html)**
>
> A small number of Ukrainian troops are being trained in Britain for the first time since the start of the Russian invasion as Prime Minister Boris Johnson steps up his military support to help Ukraine fight off its neighbour.The troops began training...
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### Author:  [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5163 "2022-04-28T17:47:13Z")
I don’t understand this criticism. I mean it was publicly announced they were sending these armored cars. Why _wouldn’t_ they train Ukrainians in their use? How is that any more egregious?
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5164 "2022-04-28T17:47:22Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> If Putin bombs Germany or Poland, it’s be game over for him.
I’m just pointing out a distinct disadvantage of dedicated training infrastructure. And there are at least two forks to this path to consider, but not simultaneous:
1. The question of whether NATO, in whole or amongst constituent members, really has the resolve to become directly involved in Ukraine or Russia.
2. Whatever the answer to that question may actually be, the question of whether Putin will be sufficiently convinced that NATO would escalate in turn so as to be deterred himself.
At this point, we are actually dealing with question number 2, and specifically need to consider what actions might cause Putin to think he can attack NATO in any fashion without inviting a full-on war with NATO. I say the chance of him _thinking_ he can get away with that is increased if he is presented with discrete targets he can bomb in Europe that all sides will recognize as existing to support Ukraine’s war effort.
The goal at this point is, I think, to support Ukraine to the extent necessary for it to maintain its sovereignty against Russia, but it so far as to provoke Putin into attacking NATO, whether due to miscalculation or (as it may turn out) he correctly deduces NATO really _doesn’t_ want a war with Russia over Ukraine right now.
ETA: I’ll just sum it up like this. The more overt war-fighting support for Ukraine becomes, the easier it is for Putin to sell attacking NATO, not just to his own people (whom he can lie to anyway), but to opposition groups in the west, potentially driving a wedge both between more or less-committed NATO states, and into internal political factions within member nations. The more discrete and open these avenues for support are (eg: explicitly announcing training is occurring in the UK, or even setting up training facilities in Poland, for example) the easier it is for Putin to launch just such a wedge-inducing attack while limiting the extent of the damage to discrete areas (which strengthens the anti-intervention groups he will want to mobilize to his effective support, in opposition to the push for NATO to intervene).
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