# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news
**Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 265
### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5345 "2022-05-03T15:30:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> After the SCOTUS leak, Putin is probably like, ‘Whew! They’re distracted now!’
If only he were fighting Americans rather than Ukrainians and (probably) some unspecified malignancy and Parkinson’s, none of which care what the SCOTUS does 😜
---
### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5346 "2022-05-03T15:56:52Z")
Well a few bus loads of civilians were saved.
The Russian are too stupid to understand allowing a civilian rescue costs them nothing. They’ve already instilled terror and slaughtered tens of thousands. One gesture of humanity might have helped Russia’s International support.
The Steel works will fall at a high cost for Russian soldiers.
Guardian blog
> [@](#):
>
> The five-day operation to evacuate women, children and the elderly from the steelworks was coordinated by the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
> [@](#):
>
> As of this moment, a powerful assault on the territory of the Azovstal plant is under way with the support of armoured vehicles, tanks, attempts to land on boats and a large number of infantry.”
>
> The reports could not be independently verified.
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### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5347 "2022-05-03T17:57:36Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> That one’s more difficult to chalk up to sloppy manufacturing methods or hurrying to meet martial quotas.
But faulty wiring with a warehouse full of paper is possible, so they can go that route.
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5348 "2022-05-03T18:00:59Z")
Germany and Japan recovered pretty well after WWII, no?
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5349 "2022-05-03T18:13:02Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> TIL that the Russian primary education system is a component of MiniTrue and that textbook warehouses function as outsized memory holes.
The old joke was that in the Soviet Union the history books were published in loose-leaf binders.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5350 "2022-05-03T18:20:56Z")
With the help of metric tons of money and resources from other countries, right? Where would that support come from for Russia? (Not saying it won’t, I literally am asking where,)
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### Author:  [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5351 "2022-05-03T18:32:13Z")
China and maybe India would be my guess.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5352 "2022-05-03T18:37:17Z")
> **[Stolen dollars, dumb generals – NV reveals conversations of Russian soldiers](https://www.yahoo.com/news/stolen-dollars-dumb-generals-nv-140000177.html)**
>
> Since Russian dictator Vladimir Putin launched all-out war on Ukraine on Feb. 24, the Russian army has lost more than 24,000 personnel, while 70,000 were wounded.
Remember that general who got fragged? A Russian soldier called home about it. [Emphasis mine]
> So, that’s the thing. There was this one general who visited us near Izyum (in Kharkiv oblast). He gave an order for our tanks to move on like “Be quick, attack!” – and they just went into a minefield. Half of our brigade was lost, it was just burned. **One of the soldiers was so mad that he got in a tank and drove over the general’s feet. The general died in the hospital later.**
There are other conversations about raping, looting, and killing, and desires to go home.
ETA this gem:
> – Our artillery is the worst in the world.
>
> – Why?
>
> – It misses all the targets.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5353 "2022-05-03T18:53:37Z")
Do you think this could be another Chechen war?(December 1994 to August 1996) Russians left once for a couple years and came back for the 2nd war that dragged on 10 years.(August 1999 to April 2009).
I could see the Russians pulling back and leaving forces in Donbas. Rebuild the military and invade again in a few years.
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### Author:  [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5354 "2022-05-03T18:54:20Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> Where would that support come from for Russia? (Not saying it won’t, I literally am asking where,)
> [@EllisDee](#):
>
> China and maybe India would be my guess.
I was thinking that too. I’m sure North Korea would _like_ to support their fellow totalitarians, but they can’t even take care of themselves without significant aid from other countries.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5355 "2022-05-03T19:00:43Z")
Long article digging into why everyday Russians support the war:
> **[Feeling around for something human Why do Russians support the war against...](https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/05/03/feeling-around-for-something-human)**
>
> For more than two months now, many Russians have openly supported the Kremlin’s “special military operation” in Ukraine — choosing to close their eyes to executions and rapes, the shelling of peaceful cities, unthinkable destruction, and millions of...
Really reminds me of what I’ve read about post WWI Germans, and post Civil War Confederate-supporters – as a population, the war defeat was so psychologically devastating it left them open to leadership and rhetoric that promised victory and a return to pre-war prestige while delivering oppression and atrocities. There’s been no real comparable war defeat for Russia, but perhaps the last few decades, including the fall of the Soviet Union, were similarly devastating (psychologically speaking) to a wide swath of everday Russians.
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### Author:  [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5356 "2022-05-03T19:13:27Z")
I don’t believe the Average American has any idea of the conflicts Russia has fought since the Soviet Union collapsed.
Chechnya,Georgia,Crimea are just the better known conflicts.
It’s been quite a surprise. Clinton was giving aid to Russia during Chechnya. A time when most people thought reforms were taking place. Western businesses were investing in Russia. Thinking it had changed.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5357 "2022-05-03T19:23:13Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I could see the Russians pulling back and leaving forces in Donbas. Rebuild the military and invade again in a few years.
I doubt it. The difference was that, the 2nd time around, Chechnya was still as poorly equipped as always, but the Russian army had improved a lot in the meantime.
When this current Ukraine war is over, Ukraine may still not be a member of NATO, but it will continue to receive the best Western weapons and training. Years from now, Ukraine will be well-nigh impregnable. Meanwhile, Russia’s economy will only get worse. A Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2027 or 2030 would fail even worse than the current invasion.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5358 "2022-05-03T19:25:23Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> Agreed. At this point it seems like a Pyrrhic victory in favor of Ukraine is the most likely outcome. Unfortunately the second most likely outcome seems to be nuclear annihilation.
A Phyrric victory is one where the cost is so great that it might as well be a defeat. If Ukraine manages to preserve their independence, it’s a victory. It might be a costly victory but it’s not tantamount to defeat.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5359 "2022-05-03T19:36:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> I could see the Russians pulling back and leaving forces in Donbas. Rebuild the military and invade again in a few years.
They are barely holding on as it is, any “pull back” is going to turn into a full retreat and any forces left behind into fertilizer.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5360 "2022-05-03T19:43:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Long article digging into why everyday Russians support the war:
>
> [Feeling around for something human Why do Russians support the war against Ukraine? Shura Burtin investigates. — Meduza](https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/05/03/feeling-around-for-something-human)
>
> Really reminds me of what I’ve read about post WWI Germans, and post Civil War Confederate-supporters – as a population, the war defeat was so psychologically devastating it left them open to leadership and rhetoric that promised victory and a return to pre-war prestige while delivering oppression and atrocities. There’s been no real comparable war defeat for Russia, but perhaps the last few decades, including the fall of the Soviet Union, were similarly devastating (psychologically speaking) to a wide swath of everday Russians.
If those calls are accurate, that would mean that Russia has had around 100 K killed + wounded. The mind boggles that their public still supports such a war.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5361 "2022-05-03T19:55:25Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> A Pyrrhic victory is one where the cost is so great that it might as well be a defeat. If Ukraine manages to preserve their independence, it’s a victory. It might be a costly victory but it’s not tantamount to defeat.
To add to that, a Pyrrhic Victory implies _choice_ - that one didn’t _have_ to fight that battle and it cost an unnecessary price.
With Ukraine, there was no choice at all. A Pyrrhic victory doesn’t apply here. It was either victory at a heavy price, or defeat at an _even heavier_ price. There was no option for “neither.”
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### Author:  [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5362 "2022-05-03T20:24:06Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> With the help of metric tons of money and resources from other countries, right? Where would that support come from for Russia? (Not saying it won’t, I literally am asking where,)
My understanding of previous posts was that Ukraine was winning, but getting destroyed in the process.
> [@PhillyGuy](#):
>
> The problem isn’t the metaphor, but that every day Russia continues to lose is another day that more of Ukraine is destroyed.
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5363 "2022-05-03T20:27:23Z")
That article also had many echoes of trump supporters in this country, too. I do not want to derail the thread, but there are many commonalities – we hear so much about the ‘propaganda bubble’ that is deceiving the Russian populace, but they _embrace_ the deceptions, the dissonance, all in service to a belief in a Strong Leader who does not require them to reason, to have compassion, to try to understand anything. The same sense of an imminent return to the greatness they believe they once had. The same relief found in hatred of the Other. Rather than look helplessly at the incoherence of the present and the fear that the future will be even worse.
I guess this is just what humans do. Can’t say it fills me with pride.
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### Author:  [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5364 "2022-05-03T23:25:33Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> If those calls are accurate, that would mean that Russia has had around 100 K killed + wounded. The mind boggles that their public still supports such a war.
I would be greatly surprised if the Russian public knows about even a quarter of the cost of the war, either in lives or weapons lost.
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