# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 277
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5585 "2022-05-11T19:52:07Z")
This particular vulnerability is from the Russian autoloader design which doesn’t compartmentalize ammo (and propellant) from the crew space. US and other NATO designs separate ammo from the crew with a fireproof door and the ammo vault has pressure-release blowout panels to allow ammo fires to burn without jeopardizing the crew or the rest of the tank. It’s more survivable. Dunno what else @DigitalC had in mind, but that would be the topic of a different thread anyway. > [@Are Tanks Obsolete Weapons?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-tanks-obsolete-weapons/39083): > > I understand that in the Gulf war, US Airforce and marine pilopts effectively destroyed an entire iraqui tank division, in about 3 hours. These were the finast main battle tanks that russia could make-not some cheap export model. However, without air cover, a $2 million tank is a sitting duck. Our pilots just blew them apart with armor piercingmmissiles. So, why does the US army still plan on new models-are these weapons dinosaurs? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5586 "2022-05-11T20:28:12Z")
But, since the Russian T-72’s ammo can only detonate if there is an explosion strong enough within the crew compartment to trigger the ammo, wouldn’t such an explosion also kill the crew anyway? It’s hard to imagine a Ukrainian missile penetrating the compartment and causing an explosion powerful enough to set off tank shells inside, yet still somehow weak enough not to kill the crew. In other words, the Russian “tank design flaw” may mean spectacular turret-throwing, but not actually make any difference as far as lives are concerned. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5587 "2022-05-11T20:32:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But, since the Russian T-72’s ammo can only detonate if there is an explosion strong enough within the crew compartment to trigger the ammo, wouldn’t such an explosion also kill the crew anyway? Well, there’s a stopped tank with nobody alive inside on one hand, and a tank that has been blown to smithereens in the other. I know in WWII they used to clean and patch up tanks and send them back into battle with a new crew after being damaged. I expect the same would happen today when there’s enough of the vehicle left. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5588 "2022-05-11T20:33:07Z")
Well, a penetrating hit in the ammo box of an Abrams may not reach into the crew compartment, so the tank and the crew live. And a penatrating hit on a crew compartment doesn’t necessarily kill everyone instantly. AP damage is often localized, and in most tanks the crew isn’t all sitting in one spot. OTOH, a crew-compartment contained runaway ammo fire is going to be 100% casualties, pre-cremated for your convenience. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5589 "2022-05-11T20:59:06Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Frankly at this point I think the tank is going the way of cavalry as it concerns to war. I think that this is very situation-dependent. For example, when Canadian troops had been deployed to Afghanistan I believe that our military was, coincidentally and at roughly the same time, considering a reduction of our armoured capability. As the deployment to Afghanistan went on, Canadian troops continued to get killed and wounded in ever strengthened vehicles (starting with the Iltis (essentially a VW Thing or Kubelwagen) to the Mercedes G-Wagon, to armoured wheeled vehicles, and then we finally sent over Leopard tanks). ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5590 "2022-05-11T21:21:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But, since the Russian T-72’s ammo can only detonate if there is an explosion strong enough within the crew compartment to trigger the ammo, wouldn’t such an explosion also kill the crew anyway? It’s hard to imagine a Ukrainian missile penetrating the compartment and causing an explosion powerful enough to set off tank shells inside, yet still somehow weak enough not to kill the crew. > > In other words, the Russian “tank design flaw” may mean spectacular turret-throwing, but not actually make any difference as far as lives are concerned. US and other allied tanks have a much better chance of survival. “Roomier” [for some degree of roomier] inside, little or no exposed explosives, fire suppression system. The russian crew is dead. Ugly description spoilered. sort of a black goo, stench in the desert was too much for me to handle. I was part of a recovery team after Desert Storm looking for remains of the DU penetrators. I lasted about an hour. At the time, the penetrator dimensions were classified, even the remaining portions whether complete or in chunks. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5591 "2022-05-11T21:25:33Z")
I’m pretty certain the answer is that they have their function, but are limited in their ability to carry the day without adequate air support. The same way air support alone may not be able to carry the day without boots/treads on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5592 "2022-05-11T22:09:36Z")
We should probably move to unmanned/drone tanks, shouldn’t we? Are there treaties preventing that? Or possibly insurmountable technical issues? Without having to house people inside, I bet an unmanned tank the size of a small compact car could be pretty darn effective. EDIT: Or is artillery strictly better? It’s at least way cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5593 "2022-05-11T22:13:37Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > If you like watching convoys of Russian armoured vehicles getting obliterated to the sound of high-energy music, then this is the video for you: > > [https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1524008954896035840](https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1524008954896035840) They are now saying this video was from 15 March. To tell you the truth, I’d give Putin’s left arm to see an actual unedited video. I have a bit of experience looking at these things and served in two warzones and I couldn’t even guess what are being counted as hits in this video other than the first one. Because of the erratic editing, I’m not even sure that both large explosions aren’t from the first vehicle burning off ammo after being destroyed. I know there are a lot of misses well off to both sides of the road. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > A Chinese TV news crew [caught the moment a Russian tank displayed its “jack-in-the-box” turret-throwing design flaw](https://twitter.com/hochu_dodomu/status/1524400486539014145). This one is a really good example of the pop tops so someone who hasn’t seen it gets an idea of what happens with a hit to the ammo load. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5594 "2022-05-11T22:25:21Z")
The end of the video shows what looks like five burnt-out hulls along the road. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5595 "2022-05-11T22:32:48Z")
I’ve seen an analysis of this video that claims it should deeply troubling to the Russians because the site of the attack has been geolocated to near Novoazovsk, a town 100km deep in the separatist “Donetsk People’s Republic” and only 13km from the Russian border. A place controlled by Russia since 2014. It means loitering drones are operating deep inside Russian controlled territory or that this was done by an IED using insurgency tactics. Either are scary scenarios for Russia as it shows their army is not safe even within what they might consider to be “safe” territory. They obviously thought it was safe enough to allow the Chinese TV crew to be filming. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5596 "2022-05-11T22:45:31Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > We should probably move to unmanned/drone tanks, shouldn’t we? What could go wrong? > **[A Taste of Armageddon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon)** > > "A Taste of Armageddon" is the twenty-third episode of the first season of the American science fiction television series Star Trek. Written by Robert Hamner and Gene L. Coon and directed by Joseph Pevney, it was first broadcast on February 23, 1967. > In the episode, the crew of the Enterprise visits a planet engaged in a completely computer-simulated war with a neighboring planet, but the casualties, including the Enterprise's crew, are supposed to be real. > The USS Enterprise travels to Eminiar... ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5597 "2022-05-11T23:45:15Z")
> [@dougrb](#): > > What could go wrong? You really went with Star Trek and not Terminator? either way the answer is you need real boots on the ground because drones can’t hold territory. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5598 "2022-05-12T00:24:04Z")
No I mean with the boots on the ground. To really hold territory you need boots on the ground, and tanks are used to support infantry who in turn support the tanks. In that situation, would it offer value to have smaller unmanned tanks that the nearby soldiers control instead of bigger tanks where you need three or four people to ride in it? Crap, this isn’t the tank thread. Sorry, my bad. Never mind. It was only idle wondering; no need to reply. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5599 "2022-05-12T02:14:31Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > In that situation, would it offer value to have smaller unmanned tanks that the nearby soldiers control instead of bigger tanks where you need three or four people to ride in it? Sounds like a teletank from the 1930s. > **[Teletank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletank)** > > Teletanks were a series of wireless remotely controlled unmanned tanks produced in the Soviet Union in the 1930s and early 1940s so as to reduce combat risk to soldiers. They saw their first combat use in the Winter War, at the start of World War II. A teletank is controlled by radio from a control tank at a distance of 500–1,500 metres (0.31–0.93 mi), the two constituting a telemechanical group. Teletanks were used by the Soviet Red Army in the Winter War against Finland, fielding at least tw Te... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5600 "2022-05-12T02:52:56Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Sounds like a teletank from the 1930s. Or an Ogre: > **[Ogre (board game)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre_(board_game))** > > OGRE is a science fiction board wargame designed by the American game designer Steve Jackson and published by Metagaming Concepts in 1977 as the first microgame in its MicroGame line. When Steve Jackson left Metagaming to form his own company, he took the rights to OGRE with him, and all subsequent editions have been produced by Steve Jackson Games (SJG). > OGRE is an asymmetrical two-player wargame set in the late 21st century that pits a single giant robot tank called an "OGRE" against the sec... ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5601 "2022-05-12T03:06:41Z")
Now that you mention it, yessss. We’ve got flying drones using automation to do their work. Why not a tank? > One fact, more than anything, shows the troops’ attitude toward the cybertank. Unlike other war vehicles, they were never called “she.” Friendly units of the speaker’s acquaintance were “he”; others were “it.” And the term “cybertank” was rarely used. People had another name for the big war machines – one drawn from the early Combine units and, before that, from dark myth. > They called them Ogres . . . ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5602 "2022-05-12T07:46:22Z")
> **[Finland's leaders announce support for NATO membership, sparking retaliation...](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/12/europe/finland-leaders-join-nato-intl/index.html)** > > Finnish President Sauli Niinistö has given his public support for the Nordic country joining NATO -- a symbolic move that could bring an end to its decades-long ambivalence about membership of the military alliance. So how about that, Vlad? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5603 "2022-05-12T07:59:09Z")
Whatever happens in Ukraine, even if Russia somehow manages to keep up the pressure over months and is able to slowly crush Ukraine into capitulation, it’s clear that from a macro long-term global perspective, Putin done fucked up on an epic level. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5604 "2022-05-12T08:47:59Z")
So Finland will join NATO within the next few days. This will more than double NATOs border with Russia and adds Finland’s very large standing army to the NATO force. This is objectively a disaster for Putin. The UK signed a defence treaty with Finland only a few days ago which I can only assume was to deter any Russian aggression over the following few days while the process of joining up is ongoing. Sweden was also part of that pact so I’m gonna guess that Sweden will also be joining up to NATO in short order. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=276) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=278)