# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 297
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5985 "2022-05-29T11:43:43Z")
So [Kissinger suggested that Ukraine secede territory to Russia](https://www.newsweek.com/does-henry-kissinger-have-point-ukraine-opinion-1710638) in order to reach peace. [Here’s an interview with the former Polish foreign minister rebutting that idea](https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2022/05/28/zelensky-rips-kissinger-over-suggestion-ukraine-cede-territory.cnn) as well as responding to other questions such as “Americans might cool their enthusiasm if the economy slows down.” I think he made some very good points. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5986 "2022-05-29T13:44:47Z")
Russian Trainers welcome back to active combat duty. Your T72 tanks are greased and waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5987 "2022-05-29T14:01:46Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > F-16. It’s not the best at anything, but it’s OK at most everything. Huh. I thought F-16s were very good. Aside: Your comment made me think of the Cessna 172 Skyhawk. It’s not very fast, but it’s fast enough. It doesn’t carry a lot of weight, but it carries enough. It doesn’t have a great range, but it’ll go for four hours, which is enough. I always say that the Skyhawk is the most-successful aircraft ever made because, while it’s not particularly good at anything, it’s good enough at everything. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5988 "2022-05-29T14:22:34Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > It’s just a jaded observation that for some folks, war is good for business. Not a judgement about whether the cause is just or not. Some is not most. Apple probably has more pull in Congress than the entire defense industry combined. > **[Biggest companies in the world by market cap 2023 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/263264/top-companies-in-the-world-by-market-capitalization/)** > > Apple was the largest company worldwide in 2023 in terms of market capitalization, followed by Saudi Aramco. It’s a reasonably safe bet that your average Congressman’s personal portfolio outlay matches the valuations of American companies. The closest I see to a defense contractor in the top 100 companies are Qualcomm and Boeing, and neither of those is dependent on their defense revenue (not to say that they don’t enjoy it). Caterpillar, the last company on the list, probably has more pull than Lockheed Martin. The economy is getting slammed. One small portion of it, sure, that one part is going to do well over the next few years. That part isn’t in the running for controlling the USA against Big Tech, Big Pharma, Big Makeup, Big Oil, and Big Agra. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5989 "2022-05-29T14:50:24Z")
Defense probably lobbies a lot harder, simply because the government is literally their only customer. Apple is a consumer seller. Their “lobbying” is their extensive public marketing and advertising portfolio. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5990 "2022-05-29T14:59:24Z")
> **[Russians banned from sending supply vehicles to the frontline - Ukrainian...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/russians-banned-sending-supply-vehicles-073811423.html)** > > ROMAN PETRENKO - SATURDAY, 28 MAY 2022, 10:38 AM The Ukrainian Chief Intelligence Directorate has said that Russia is having problems supplying units of its occupying forces. They are reportedly economising on supply vehicles that are supposed to... > According to Ukrainian intelligence, in order not to lose equipment, commanders of logistics units of occupying troops are prohibiting drivers from evacuating the wounded and bringing food and fuel to forward units. ‘What is the purpose of your logistical unit?’ ‘To take food, fuel, ammunition and other supplies to the front lines so that our brave soldiers can fight the war. Also to evacuate the wounded.’ ‘But you are not doing that.’ ‘Nyet! Our equipment might be destroyed!’ ‘So… You’re keeping your equipment safe so that you can perform your logistical duties, but you’re not performing your logistical duties so that you can keep your equipment safe? That’s some catch, that Catch 22.’ ‘Is best!’ ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5991 "2022-05-29T14:59:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Huh. I thought F-16s were very good. Oh, it is, especially for the amount it costs. But it’s designed to do a little of everything. For a specific task, such as air superiority, we have better planes. But yeah, it’s like the 172. If we decide we’re going to give Ukraine only one plane, it’s the one I would send. It can do most jobs very well. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5992 "2022-05-29T15:08:04Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Defense probably lobbies a lot harder, simply because the government is literally their only customer. At the point where the government starts trying to ruin the economy, you can rest assured that Apple is there to run in and offer your least favorite politician an infinitely deeper bag of cash, if only he’ll work for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5993 "2022-05-29T16:14:10Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Nyet! Our equipment might be destroyed!’ [Appropriate Blazing Saddles clip](https://youtu.be/DiUdtxe2YnU?t=64) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5994 "2022-05-29T20:58:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > That’s some catch, that Catch 22. No, is Katch-2022. _Better_ katch. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5995 "2022-05-29T21:52:45Z")
In Russia, Katch 22’s YOU. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5996 "2022-05-30T00:53:12Z")
Well, now what? Seems unlikely NATO would actually deploy under the current situation. Guardian blog > [@](#): > > ## Nato has the right to deploy in eastern Europe, deputy chief says > > Nato is no longer bound by past commitments to hold back from deploying its forces in eastern [Europe](https://www.theguardian.com/world/europe-news), the US-led alliance’s deputy secretary general has said. > > Moscow itself has “voided of any content” the Nato-Russia Founding Act, by attacking [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) and halting dialogue with the alliance, Mircea Geoana told Agence France-Presse. > > Under the 1997 Founding Act, intended to reset the relationship between [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) and the Alliance, both sides agreed to work to “prevent any potentially threatening build-up of conventional forces in agreed regions of Europe, to include Central and Eastern Europe”. Geoana, speaking in the Lithuanian capital of Vilnius, said: > > > They took decisions, they made obligations there not to aggress neighbours, which they are doing, and to have regular consultations with Nato, which they don’t. > > > > So I think that in fact this founding act is basically not functioning because of Russia,” he added. > > Russia, he said, had effectively moved away from the terms of the 1997 agreement. > > > Now we have no restrictions to have robust posture in the eastern flank and to ensure that every square inch of Nato’s territory is protected by Article 5 and our allies.” > > Nato’s article 5 is the one referring to collective defence, which says that an attack on one member is an attack on all of them. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5997 "2022-05-30T00:58:15Z")
There is zero chance we get involved while we can get someone else to die for us. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5998 "2022-05-30T01:58:44Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > So [Kissinger suggested that Ukraine secede territory to Russia](https://www.newsweek.com/does-henry-kissinger-have-point-ukraine-opinion-1710638) in order to reach peace. How ideologically blinkered does someone have to be to think that ceding territory in this case is going to achieve peace? I wish a sharp interviewer would challenge Kissinger on this point. It’s disappointing to see Kissinger discrediting his own foreign-policy expertise. It was he who rightly warned – as early as the 1990s – that Russia was unlikely to remain within its post-Soviet borders. ---
**Author:** ![GWF\_Hefel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@GWF\_Hefel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GWF_Hefel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/5999 "2022-05-30T02:46:54Z")
Hey, leave Kissinger alone. He’s 99. How much advice do you take from a 99 year-old? Let the shriveled up, non-deserving Nobel Peace Prize winning PoS enjoy his last few days before he slides on down to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6000 "2022-05-30T10:28:06Z")
Moderating: Reminder that this is a breaking news thread. Please take the politics elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6001 "2022-05-30T10:49:38Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And the historical parallels continue. Next, he needs to conscript the young adolescents… Getting there… > **[Russia sending youth group members to Ukraine](https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707778)** > > Since March 30, a detachment of volunteers from the Young Guard of United Russia and the Volunteer Company have been stationed on the territory of the DPR, according to the movement. In other news… > **[Ukraine war: Eurovision trophy sold to buy drones for Ukraine](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61628590)** > > The Ukrainian winners of this year's song contest, Kalush Orchestra, sell their trophy for $900,000. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6002 "2022-06-01T00:15:30Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Man, as that article basically states, if you lose your experienced trainers, you lose your ability to regenerate an army. That’s not the absolute bottom of the barrel, but if you scrape further it really will probably become an existential war for you. The metaphor I have heard used is “grinding your seed corn.” Pretty evocative, huh? > [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > How ideologically blinkered does someone have to be to think that ceding territory in this case is going to achieve peace? Kissinger still thinks in terms of the Congress of Vienna as being the highest expression of statesmanship, never mind what that means to small nations on the borders of larger ones or to minorities within nation-states, who simply endure what they must while the strong do what they will. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6003 "2022-06-01T00:37:51Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > The metaphor I have heard used is “grinding your seed corn.” Pretty evocative, huh? Heck, it seems to me that’s actually killing the stalks before they can even make any seed corn. They seemed to be grinding up officers earlier, and have now added their trainers to the mix. I’m not complaining, but it’s certainly not what I’d do in the same situation. That same behavior seems apparent in the current assessment of the assault on Siverodonetsk. It seems that Russia has prioritized it and is simply throwing all the troops it can muster at it. That seems like a recipe for breaking your army on one offensive objective and neglecting defending the others (e;g. Kershon). Apparently heavy equipment is still arriving from the west for Ukraine, while Russia is sourcing equipment from Belarus now. It’s grim in the east of the country, but it still seems that the long term trend is in Ukraine’s favor. > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-31)** > > Moscow’s concentration on seizing Severodonetsk and Donbas generally continues to create vulnerabilities for Russia in Ukraine’s vital Kherson Oblast, where Ukrainian counter-offensives continue. Kherson is critical terrain because it is the only... ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6004 "2022-06-01T03:05:59Z")
Video of one of the incredibly daring helicopter supply missions to Mariupol: > > **[Inside Ukraine's Daring Helicopter Missions Into Russian-Occupied Mariupol](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/exclusive-details-of-ukraines-daring-helicopter-missions-into-russian-occupied-mariupol)** > > With Ukrainian troops besieged in a massive steel plant and under constant fire from Russian forces, helicopter crews sprung into action. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=296) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=298)