# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 301
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6065 "2022-06-04T20:39:36Z")
The Treaty of Versailles was punitive _after_ the war was over with, and the terms of the treaty were humiliating. I’m not so sure that the current sanctions are set up to work like that- I don’t think there’s a large demand for reparations or anything to Ukraine, or anything particularly punitive to the Russians once they withdraw. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6066 "2022-06-04T22:06:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The Treaty of Versailles was punitive _after_ the war was over with, and the terms of the treaty were humiliating. Yes. I didn’t read the article I just assumed Macron was talking about after the war. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6067 "2022-06-04T22:55:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Russia would be attacking Kyiv with an even more spent-and-broken invasion force than last time, going up against even better prepared Ukrainian defense, with even better weapons, thus losing even more troops. > > I mean, I’m all in favor of it. 30,000 more dead Russians sounds like a swell idea. One of my old Navy shipmates has reportedly gone to Ukraine to join up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6068 "2022-06-05T00:05:45Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Macron is still saying that Russia should not be humiliated, but many people in eastern Europe see this as appeasement: Neville Chamberlain is alive and well and living in France. What a stupid mindset. If they don’t want to be humiliated then don’t do humiliating things that kill 10’s of thousands of people. This could all be solved with a bullet in Putin’s brain. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2022, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6069 "2022-06-05T01:25:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Neville Chamberlain is alive and well and living in France. What a stupid mindset. No, the Chamberlaining was done by Henry Kissinger who said let Russia have SE Ukraine for the sake of ending the fighting. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6070 "2022-06-05T04:14:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This could all be solved with a bullet in Putin’s brain. No, please do not advocate foolish notions. Very likely, depending on who the attacker was, assassination of Uncle Vovo could well make the situation much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6071 "2022-06-05T05:44:38Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > No, please do not advocate foolish notions. Very likely, depending on who the attacker was, assassination of Uncle Vovo could well make the situation much worse. Nothing foolish about suicide when the reality of your deeds sink in. He wants to kill neo-Nazis and they don’t get any worse then him. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6072 "2022-06-05T14:22:44Z")
The Russian’s are saying that they’ve destroyed 90% of Ukrainian forces in Severodonesk with the rest fleeing, whereas the Ukrainians are saying they’ve pushed the Russians out of the city. Totally differing accounts - proper fog of war stuff. If anyone wants in depth detail about the military situation this guy does good daily update videos: [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUnc496-PPmFZVKlYxUnToA/featured](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUnc496-PPmFZVKlYxUnToA/featured) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6073 "2022-06-06T00:51:10Z")
Is this the first time Zelenskiy has acknowledged that Crimea is off the table? It could be an important concession from Ukraine. It seems unlikely Ukraine would even try taking Crimea back by force. It’s important they finally acknowledged it publicly. Guardian blog > [@](#): > > ## Zelenskiy: no military solution in Crimea, other lost territory > > **Ukraine’s president [Volodymyr Zelenskiy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/volodymyr-zelenskiy) has expanded - a little - on his earlier assertion that Donbas would remain in the country’s hands, despite the furious onslaught by Russia’s military forces in the region.** > > Tonight, he said that he didn’t believe all the land seized by [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) since 2014, which includes Crimea, could be recaptured militarily. > > In a television address late Saturday, Reuters reported, Zelenskiy thanked Ukraine’s forces for holding out in Donbas, and repeated his belief that Moscow would come to the negotiating table if his country seized back all the land taken by Russia since its 24 February invasion. > > But he ruled out going further and attempting to retake Crimea and other territory lost since the Russian invasion there in 2014 by force: > > > I do not believe that we can restore all of our territory by military means. If we decide to go that way, we will lose hundreds of thousands of people. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6074 "2022-06-06T01:35:21Z")
Add another dead Russian General to the list. ISW confirms the Ukrainian counterattack in Severodonetsk is gaining back territory. I think control of the city will go back and forth for awhile. Site: [Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, June 5 | Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-5) > [@](#): > > **Ukrainian forces reportedly killed Russian Major General Roman Kutuzov on June 5.** Russian Telegram channels reported that Kutuzov was killed near Mykolaivka, Luhansk Oblast (near Popasna) on June 5.[3] Kutuzov likely commanded the Donetsk People’s Republic’s 1st Army Corps at the time of his death, though ISW cannot confirm his exact position.[4] Some sources reported that Kutuzov commanded the 5th Combined Arms Army (CAA) at the time of his death, but we assess this is likely incorrect—Kutuzov served as acting commander of the 5th CAA from 2017 to 2019, and Major General Alexei Vladimirovich Podilov currently commands the 5th CAA.[5] High-level Russian commanders have taken remarkably high losses during combat in Ukraine, and will likely continue to do so as the Russian command continues to deploy military leadership directly to the frontline. Kutuzov’s death has not yet been confirmed but would be at least the seventh death of a general in Ukraine since the beginning of the war.[6] ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6075 "2022-06-06T02:29:50Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Add another dead Russian General to the list. It’s fun to keep count of dead Russian Generals…but has anybody ever done a serious analysis of whether losing senior officers affects the actual outcome of the battles? The Russian army has shown a certain level of competence-- and mostly incompetence–which astonished us at first, since everybody “knew” that Russia was one of the biggest and best armies in the world. Now we know the surprising truth, and have understood their poor organization and logistics. Yet the Russians continue with their tactics, and it’s working pretty well. They won’t conquer all of Ukraine, but they seem to have been pretty good at taking over the 20% of it which they currently control, and will continue to pummel everything within range of their gunsights for a long, long time. No matter how many Generals they lose, ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6076 "2022-06-06T02:37:45Z")
I would agree to a certain extent - when you have a military that’s as bad as Russia’s, the loss of expertise in the high-up ranks matters little because they made little difference to begin with. By analogy: an NFL team that loses a head coach, such as if the Patriots losing Bill Belichick, might be severely affected. But when you have a bunch of elementary school kids playing football on their own in a backyard, what does it matter if they lose their “coach”? They were already playing whatever-ball to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6077 "2022-06-06T02:47:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > They were already playing whatever-ball Calvinball? Because, war has rules not unlike those of Calvinball. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6078 "2022-06-06T02:50:06Z")
Can we please, pretty please, drop sports analogies when discussing a brutal war where a ton of actual people are dying horrible deaths? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6079 "2022-06-06T03:05:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I would agree to a certain extent - when you have a military that’s as bad as Russia’s, the loss of expertise in the high-up ranks matters little because they made little difference to begin with. Unless they’ve abandon their doctrine it matters greatly if they lose high ranking people. They don’t do anything without instructions from above. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6080 "2022-06-06T03:19:53Z")
How soon are we going to be able to see Dead Russian Generals in concert? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6081 "2022-06-06T04:10:17Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Can we please, pretty please, drop sports analogies when discussing a brutal war where a ton of actual people are dying horrible deaths? As tactfully as I can ask this, what kind of non-war analogy **would** you prefer that I use for war? Any analogy that doesn’t involve death is going to sound bad when used as an analogy for war. Should I use…cooking? Working in the office? Chess? I’m not using sports analogies arbitrarily; I’m using them because there are direct similarities between sports and war. Both involve victory or defeat outcomes, both involve planning, execution, require guidance from higher-ups, tactics, strategy, a time period by which point it will eventually become clear who has won, and both involve margin of victory - one can win big or win small. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6082 "2022-06-06T04:35:17Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Can we please, pretty please, drop sports analogies when discussing a brutal war where a ton of actual people are dying horrible deaths? Yes, exactly. Any time I see a post that starts to use a sports analogy, I just skip it because: (a) sports has no relationship to a war; and (b) people are dying. Use a sports analogy and you lose my interest immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6083 "2022-06-06T04:37:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > As tactfully as I can ask this, what kind of non-war analogy **would** you prefer that I use for war? Is it not possible for you to discuss something without using analogies? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2022, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6084 "2022-06-06T04:53:56Z")
More encouraging news for Ukraine. Ben Wallace said they’ll train the men in the UK. > **[Ukraine war: UK to send Ukraine M270 multiple-launch rocket systems](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61701055)** > > A small number of cutting-edge rocket systems will be sent, despite a fresh warning from Russia. > [@](#): > > Britain and America have led the way in supplying weapons to Ukraine, but giving it advanced long range rockets marks a significant shift, said the BBC’s defence correspondent Jonathan Beale. > > It is also a recognition that Ukraine is struggling to compete against Russia’s vast artillery arsenal, he added. > > The UK’s multiple launch rocket system can fire 12 surface-to-surface missiles within a minute and can strike targets within 50 miles (80km) with pinpoint accuracy - far further than the artillery Ukraine currently possesses. > > It is similar to the system the US is sending, the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=300) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=302)