# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 311
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6265 "2022-06-18T15:07:47Z")
Medic in Mariupol that treated Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. Her bodycam footage was released iust before her capture. > **[Russia frees Yuliia Paievska, a celebrated medic who filmed Mariupol's horror](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/yuliia-paievska-russia-frees-captive-medic-who-filmed-mariupol-horror/#app)** > > A celebrated Ukrainian medic whose footage was smuggled out of the besieged city of Mariupol by an Associated Press team was freed by Russian forces. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6266 "2022-06-18T18:03:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And land is all they’ll get. They bombed any useful assets back to the stone age. Ah, but it was either that or back down. And backing down means loss of ruling legitimacy, which for a certain segment of the population is a greater existential threat than mass death. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6267 "2022-06-18T20:52:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > At 5’ 7", Zelenskyy and Putin are the officially same height. Unofficially, I’ve read speculation that Putin is actually 5’ 3" or 5’ 5". In pictures I’ve seen of the two men side by side Zelenskyy looks to be the shorter of the two. That could be lifts for Putin, or a camera angle, but either way neither is particularly tall. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6268 "2022-06-18T21:19:27Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Ah, but it was either that or back down. And backing down means loss of ruling legitimacy, which for a certain segment of the population is a greater existential threat than mass death. Yes but since he seems to be following Hitler’s playbook maybe he should skip to the last page. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6269 "2022-06-18T21:59:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > either way neither is particularly tall. According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country), the average height of a male Russian is 5 ft 9½ in, and the average height of a male Ukrainian is 5 ft 9 in. So yeah, they’re both shorter than average. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6270 "2022-06-18T23:26:36Z")
Oddly enough, having to import food to feed your people didn’t make the United Kingdom genocidal and expansionist. (That happened back before Great Britain had a net food deficit.) And certainly Russia has no dearth of food. Right now, everyone else is suffering from lack of Russian (and Ukrainian) wheat, after all. Maybe - just maybe - trading stuff that you produce for food ends up being a lot cheaper in the long run than starting a war? (Edited out a sarcastic aside - not directed at anyone, but might have been taken as such) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6271 "2022-06-19T01:36:42Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > Maybe - just maybe - trading stuff that you produce for food ends up being a lot cheaper in the long run than starting a war? In reference to the German WW2 example part of the problem was that their economic theory did not include a belief in true free markets, and had a vision of economic autarchy. Their mentality was _“What if these other countries one day just refuse to sell us food and oil for what we offer, or to buy our manufactured goods for what we ask?”_ They felt that to prevent that they needed to be in control of the kind and amounts of resources that can only be provided by a large empire or by a large collection of vassal states who would be resource-extraction colonies and captive markets. The post as I interpreted it is to the effect that maybe there is something in Russia’s worldview that is not necessarily obvious to us, and that if explained we would say “OMG they’re getting it ALL WRONG”… but _to them_ is a driver in the universe they believe to inhabit. Search me what **that** could be. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6272 "2022-06-19T03:18:41Z")
The U.S. is readying its Russian-made Afghan Air Force helicopters for Ukraine: > Everyone loves seeing destroyed Russian tanks: > ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6273 "2022-06-19T04:52:30Z")
ТОP БЦП - view from the cockpit: > ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6274 "2022-06-19T17:52:37Z")
I read that Ukraine pushed Russian forces out of Kharkiv almost three weeks ago. Then they pushed them back outside artillery range. I thought life in Kharkiv was getting better. I realize Russia can always target anything in Ukraine with missiles and aircraft bombing. Guardian blog > [@](#): > > ## Ukraine: Russia trying to make Kharkiv frontline city > > Reuters has this line from a Ukrainian official about the situation near Kharkiv, the country’s second largest city: > > > Russia is trying to make Kharkiv a frontline city,” Vadym Denysenko, an adviser to the interior minister, told Ukraine’s national television. > > It comes after [Amnesty International this week accused Russia of war crimes in Ukraine,](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/jun/13/russia-ukraine-war-russia-committed-war-crimes-in-kharkiv-amnesty-alleges-evacuation-routes-destroyed-in-sievierodonetsk-live?page=with:block-62a6b8188f083046f4fbc9fa#block-62a6b8188f083046f4fbc9fa) saying attacks on Kharkiv - many using banned cluster bombs - had killed hundreds of civilians. June 18 ISW map shows fighting some distance from Kharkiv. I think the dashed ring is the artillery range? The fighting is trying to keep Russia from shelling Kharkiv. [![](https://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Kharkiv%20Battle%20Map%20Draft%20June%2018%2C2022.png) ](https://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Kharkiv%20Battle%20Map%20Draft%20June%2018%2C2022.png) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6275 "2022-06-20T01:01:20Z")
So, say we rewind the clock back to Feb-23 - or, actually, a bit earlier, like Jan-23. What could have been done to avert the invasion? It’s clear that diplomacy didn’t work; the US threw the diplomatic sink at Russia and nothing deterred Putin. Is the takeaway lesson going to be that nothing short of stationing American/NATO forces directly in a threatened nation like Ukraine will avert an attack? ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6276 "2022-06-20T04:46:26Z")
I can’t do this here cause it’s WAY too political. At the risk of getting my hand slapped, I will say that if Trump hadn’t fucked Ukraine over a laptop, things might have been different. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6277 "2022-06-20T05:01:06Z")
The resilience of the Ukrainians is inspiring. I understand the need to return to daily activities. Go to a restaurant,walk in the park or just go to work. It doesn’t make sense to hide in your home 24/7. The war isn’t over. Kyiv will be hit again and some people will die. Somehow these people have to find a balance of staying safe and living their life > **[‘We’re tired of being scared’: Kyiv residents take steps towards normality](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/20/were-tired-of-being-scared-kyiv-residents-take-steps-towards-normality)** > > Restaurants are filling up again as clubs welcome daytime revellers, but the city remains under a cloud of war > [@](#): > > Almost four months after Moscow invaded Ukraine, signs of normality have begun to return to Kyiv. Anti-tank roadblocks have been moved aside, while families stroll around the city’s many parks. Terraces have started filling up, with well-dressed locals drinking Aperol spritz. > > The Ukrainian city has not been shelled for two weeks as Russia was forced to dramatically adjust its military goals. Most people now ignore the daily air raid sirens when they go off. > The city still has a daily 11pm curfew, and on a recent Sunday afternoon, lines emerged outside a nightclub, which now hosts day parties. > > “Don’t be fooled by all this, because we are obviously still at war,” stressed Anna Levchuk, a manager at the Kometa pizza restaurant. “Everyone still talks about the war. Everyone is somehow affected or involved.” ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6278 "2022-06-20T05:26:53Z")
Here’s what the President of Kazakhstan said a couple of days ago at a forum, while sitting next to Putin: [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVpacp-WQAEmx2_?format=png&name=900x900) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVpacp-WQAEmx2_?format=png&name=900x900) ([mdimitri91](https://twitter.com/mdmitri91/status/1538641867134455810)) > ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6279 "2022-06-20T11:22:10Z")
Can you explain that to a tired person? Is he saying that a nation’s self determination of wanting to take back land conflicts with the integrity of an established nation? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6280 "2022-06-20T11:37:48Z")
Yes, that’s always been a tension between the two principles. For instance, I think the Russian position is that the two areas of Donbas have the right to self-determination and to break away from Ukraine, while the Ukrainian position is that those two areas are an integral part of Ukraine and cannot separate. Both sides can cite the UN Charter. This issue has come up in Canadian politics with regard to Quebec, and there is a detailed decision of the Supreme Court of Canada on the issue of the two principles. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6281 "2022-06-20T12:44:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So, say we rewind the clock back to Feb-23 - or, actually, a bit earlier, like Jan-23. What could have been done to avert the invasion? The Ukrainian government reportedly didn’t take news of a potential invasion seriously. That was explained at first as Zelensky not wanting to panic the populace, now it’s reported as him not believing it could happen. What if the West (US and UK) pushed or helped Ukraine to more overtly prepare, scatter their resources, have heavy weaponry already imported, make it clear to Russia that the surprise is gone. Or would that just make Russia double down? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6282 "2022-06-20T12:48:06Z")
> **[Russia warns NATO-member Lithuania over Kaliningrad transit](https://news.yahoo.com/russia-warns-nato-member-lithuania-120404620.html)** > > LONDON (Reuters) -Russia warned NATO member Lithuania on Monday that unless the transit of goods to Russia's Kaliningrad exclave on the Baltic Sea was swiftly restored then Moscow would take undisclosed measures to defend its national interests. ... Putin basically has no realistic hope of imposing his will on a NATO country, but this would be a scary escalation nevertheless. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6283 "2022-06-20T13:25:53Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Here’s what the President of Kazakhstan said a couple of days ago at a forum, while sitting next to Putin: Yeah, bud. We’ll stand aside then, when it’s your turn to be subjugated. After all, the Soviets kept you pretty well under their thumb from 1917 to 1990 when you declared sovereignty, pretty much the same as Ukraine. You think for a moment Putin doesn’t want you back? Lickspittle. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6284 "2022-06-20T13:30:49Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > You think for a moment Putin doesn’t want you back? > > Lickspittle. I read his message as saying that he wouldn’t recognize L and D as independent (presumably a necessary fig-leaf for them to then request annexation into Russia). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=310) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=312)