# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 313
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6305 "2022-06-21T18:04:03Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > However, they must also recognise the severe hazard of becoming an existential threat to Putin/Russia. The crux of the dilemma is agreeing on what constitutes an existential threat to Russia. Putin may set the bar much lower than westerners might expect. Reading his mind is a scary and pointless exercise. Putin will be Putin, and we cannot change that. We must live our democratic principles and do what is right. Endless second guessing ourselves profits no one. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6306 "2022-06-21T18:49:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The crux of the dilemma is agreeing on what constitutes an existential threat to Russia. Putin may set the bar much lower than westerners might expect. Reading his mind is a scary and pointless exercise. Putin will be Putin, and we cannot change that. We must live our democratic principles and do what is right. Endless second guessing ourselves profits no one. That’s an argument for NATO setting the bar low. I don’t like the idea that NATO is constrained by the nuclear threat from Russia. However, I’m glad that the Soviet Union was constrained by the nuclear threat from NATO last century. There’s an idea that acquiesce to a nuclear power encourages other countries to become nuclear powers. I can’t counter that argument other than to state that the US/Europe/NATO/allies need to constantly build and reinforce alliances. Unfortunately, Ukraine was never a western ally. Treating them as an ally now when there were never foreign defenders protecting them before is an escalation between the west and Russia. I want the west to support Ukraine, but I also really don’t want the west to raise that support bar where Russia perceives it crosses the threshold from Ukrainian support to active war against Russia. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6307 "2022-06-21T21:42:32Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Treating them as an ally now when there were never foreign defenders I don’t think that we are treating them as allies because they are western allies. Rather I think that what we are doing is telling the rest of the world that it’s unacceptable to go invading neighbouring, and completely non-threating countries; but we’re stuck with a potential nuclear threat and a very dangerous leader that are really limiting our options. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6308 "2022-06-21T21:49:27Z")
The only reason we are bothering to help Ukraine is because we know damn well they are dying instead of us right now, and the longer they hold out the longer we postpone the Russia/NATO clash. If that wasn’t an absolute certainty we would give zero fucks about what Russia does. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6309 "2022-06-22T01:23:34Z")
The Russian invaders have made some progress to the south of Lysychansk. The fascists had been gathering reserves for an offensive to conquer the entirety of Luhansk Oblast - with Severodonetsk-Lysychansk being the last major urban area in the province under Ukrainian control - by a reported deadline of June 26 (Sunday). [![](https://i.imgur.com/esX087X.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/esX087X.png) Meanwhile, the Ukrainian counteroffensive in Kherson Oblast is making progress. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6310 "2022-06-22T13:18:31Z")
That Ukrainian pocket is steadily closing in. There’s not much Ukraine can do except make every foot of occupied land as costly as possible for Russia. The artillery crews got a short break from the war. It must be tough leaving Germany and rejoining the front lines. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/howitzers-arrive-ukraine-first-pledged-weapons-package-germany-2022-06-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/howitzers-arrive-ukraine-first-pledged-weapons-package-germany-2022-06-21/) > [@](#): > > “We have replenishment!..The German Panzerhaubitze 2000 with trained Ukrainian crews joined the Ukrainian artillery family,” Ukraine’s Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov said on social media. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6311 "2022-06-22T14:08:42Z")
The German Panzerhaubitze 2000 looks similar to a tank. I guess the longer barrel identifies it as artillery. I see how mobility makes it a great weapon for shoot and scoot tactics. Site: [Shoot-and-scoot - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot-and-scoot) [![](https://farm1.staticflickr.com/570/23588090670_9472f91352_b.jpg) ](https://farm1.staticflickr.com/570/23588090670_9472f91352_b.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6312 "2022-06-22T14:14:16Z")
How much of the Russian artillery is towed rather than self-propelled? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6313 "2022-06-22T14:25:34Z")
Seems like most of the Russian artillery is mobile. > **[Russian Artillery Can Lob Shells At Ukrainian Troops With 10 Seconds’ Notice](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/02/02/russian-artillery-can-lob-shells-at-ukrainian-troops-with-10-seconds-notice/?sh=203cefc940f7)** > > In Russian doctrine, artillery—not tanks or infantry—is the decisive force. Russia's embedding of artillery with front-line units and its advances in drone surveillance allow it to target enemy units with impressive speed. > [@](#): > > Each has an artillery component. Three batteries each with six 2S19 152-millimeter self-propelled howitzers. The batteries trail behind the tank and infantry companies, each with a junior officer in charge, safe under armor in his own 1V13 fire-control vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6314 "2022-06-22T14:29:31Z")
Russia has [plenty of both](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Russian_Ground_Forces#Artillery). The vehicle in the centre, a 2S19 Msta, is probably the closest Russian equivalent to the Panzerhaubitze 2000. [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FViJYPWWQAElfnw?format=jpg&name=large) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FViJYPWWQAElfnw?format=jpg&name=large) ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6315 "2022-06-22T14:34:37Z")
I suspect that the more self-propelled artillery there is, the more fuel it takes to move it around. It just seems to me that a truck towing a gun can get that piece to a new location faster and with less gas than the SP variety. Is this accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6316 "2022-06-22T14:48:07Z")
From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_artillery): > [@](#): > > The key advantage of self-propelled over towed artillery is that it can be brought into action much faster. Before the towed artillery can be used, it has to stop, unlimber and set up the guns. To move position, the guns must be limbered up again and brought — usually towed — to the new location. By comparison, self-propelled artillery can stop at a chosen location and begin firing almost immediately, then quickly move on to a new position. This shoot-and-scoot ability is very useful in a mobile conflict and particularly on the advance. Their tracks would also give them better off-road mobility. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6317 "2022-06-22T14:48:11Z")
Yes. The main advantage of towed is cheaper - per piece, and fuel, etc. The advantage of SPG is that it scoots to avoid counterbattery fire much better, and is usually armored, so much more survivable. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6318 "2022-06-22T14:52:10Z")
It seems like finding enough fuel is a major problem for the Russians, though. Could it be that the towed arty can redeploy for an advance more readily due to getting more performance per gallon? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6319 "2022-06-22T14:59:42Z")
Russia is the second-largest oil producer in the world. The fuel problems they were having earlier in the war were related to getting fuel to frontline units amid Ukrainian ambushes on supply convoys, as well as seasonal mud limiting off-road movement when the roads were a massive traffic jam of Russian vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6320 "2022-06-22T17:21:09Z")
German scheduled/intransit contributions: 30 Gepard armored self-propelled anti-aircraft guns, including around 6,000 rounds of anti-aircraft ammunition IRIS-T surface-to-air missile system Cobra artillery detection radar 80 Toyota pickup trucks Three MARS multiple rocket launchers with ammunition 54 M113 armored personnel carriers with armament (systems from Denmark, with conversion financed by Germany) 10,000 rounds of artillery ammunition 53,000 rounds of anti-aircraft ammunition 5.8 million rounds of handgun ammunition Seven Panzerhaubitze 2000 155mm self-propelled howitzers, including training and spare parts (joint project with the Netherlands) 5,000 combat helmets Eight mobile ground radars and thermal imaging devices 40 reconnaissance drones 10 protected vehicles Seven “jammers” Eight electronic anti-drone devices Four mobile, remote-controlled, protected demining devices 65 refrigerators for medical supplies One vehicle decontamination point 100 auto-injectors 14 anti-drone sensors and jammers 10 anti-drone cannons 100,000 first aid kits 22 trucks Previous contributions: 3,000 Panzerfaust 3 semi-disposable single-shot rocket cartridges plus 900 launchers 14,900 anti-tank mines 500 Stinger man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS) 2,700 Strela surface-to-air missiles 16 million rounds of handgun ammunition 50 Bunkerfaust rockets designed for use against hardened enemy positions 100 MG3 machine guns with 500 spare barrels and bolts 100,000 hand grenades 5,300 explosive charges 100,000 meters of detonating cord and 100,000 detonators 350,000 detonators 23,000 combat helmets 15 pallets of clothing 178 motor vehicles 100 tents 12 power generators six pallets of material for explosive ordnance disposal 125 binoculars 1,200 hospital beds 18 pallets of medical supplies, 60 surgical lights Protective clothing, surgical masks 10,000 sleeping bags 600 pairs of shooting glasses one radio frequency system 3,000 field telephones with 5,000 reels of field cord and carrying equipment one field hospital (joint project with Estonia) 353 sets night vision goggles Four electronic anti-drone devices 165 binoculars Medical supplies 38 laser range finders Diesel fuel and gasoline 10 tons of AdBlue diesel fuel exhaust fluid 500 wound dressings 500 food rations 2,025 pallets, or 68 truckloads, of food MiG-29 spare parts 30 armored vehicles > **[Ukraine Situation Report: Germany Discloses Full List Of Military Aid](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-germany-discloses-full-list-of-military-aid)** > > Armor and artillery are included in arsenal of weapons Germany is donating to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6321 "2022-06-22T17:42:28Z")
So this wasn’t accurate? > ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6322 "2022-06-22T17:50:49Z")
“And @Bundeskanzler Sholz carries his own suitcase … Probably there’s military aid: Two pistols, one grenade, a photo of a howitzer.” Fortunately I’d just put my drink down. 🤣 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6323 "2022-06-22T19:26:09Z")
Huh, apparently a russian drone bumped into the Russian refinery. 😉😉 > [@](#): > > Video published on Russian social network channels showed a drone approaching the oil refinery as workers looked on. > > “Do you think it’s Ukrainian?” asked one. > > “Of course not,” another answered. > > “Where’d it go?” he added, as the drone vanished from sight. > > Moments later, a large explosion rocked the refinery. > > “Fuck!” yelled the onlookers. As a fire began raging at the refinery, the unidentified cameraman said with a resigned tone: “That’s what’s happening, guys.” > **[Drone crashes into Russian oil refinery in possible attack](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/22/russian-novoshakhtinsk-oil-refinery-struck-drone-possible-attack-inside-borders)** > > Video shared on social media shows an explosion at the Novoshakhtinsk plant ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6324 "2022-06-22T20:53:17Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It must be tough leaving Germany and rejoining the front lines. It’s my understanding that the exact opposite is true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=312) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=314)