# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 322
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6485 "2022-07-03T14:37:03Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It depends on Ukraine’s casualties. They’re not reporting how badly are their degraded. In addition to the equipment they’ve received, Ukraine is able to replace their casualties easier than Russia can, since Russia is still in a position of denying it’s at war. Russia is re-purposing cruise missiles intended for naval use against land targets, and they were already considered inaccurate against their intended target. It appears that they really are already scraping the bottom of their equipment barrel. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6486 "2022-07-03T14:57:43Z")
Odd that The Guardian claims **Lysychansk** hasn’t fallen. ISW has Geolocated footage of Russian soldiers casually walking in the city. That seems pretty accurate. I assume thats video. ISW uses a lot of geodata to track Russian troop movements. Their daily maps of the battle lines seem accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6487 "2022-07-03T15:19:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > If Russia fires at escort ships, _then_ you sink their Black Sea fleet. The ships carrying the grain could also be reflagged as US (or other western nationalities) like what was done during the 1980s Tanker War in the Persian Gulf. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6488 "2022-07-03T16:00:36Z")
I like that idea Elmer\_J.Fudd. Nuke standoff works both ways. NATO doesn’t attack Russian territory. Russia doesn’t attack NATO ships or countries. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6489 "2022-07-04T11:34:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > The only reason we are bothering to help Ukraine is because we know damn well they are dying instead of us right now, and the longer they hold out the longer we postpone the Russia/NATO clash. If that wasn’t an absolute certainty we would give zero fucks about what Russia does. Cynical, but with much truth in it. Which is why we’re defending a nation that prior to the Russia invasion we had no alliance or treaty with. Also a nugget of “it’s the right thing to do” in there, and it’s a way to weaken Russia which is in the interests of the West. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6490 "2022-07-04T12:17:02Z")
Former General Hodges is still confident the acccuracy HIMARS will make a tactical difference. I saw a report yesterday that a ammo dump in Mariupol got hit. Site: [How HIMARS Rockets Can Help Turn The Tide In Ukraine](https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2022/06/28/how-himars-rockets-can-help-turn-the-tide-in-ukraine/?sh=6ab8060192a8) > [@](#): > > Former U.S. Army Commander for Europe Ben Hodges predicted on LinkedIn this week that the tide of war in Ukraine will begin shifting against Moscow in July, and Russian forces will “crack” as tactical challenges mount. > > General Hodges isn’t the only observer expecting an erosion in Russia’s battlefield performance. After its initial forays into the country faltered, Russia shifted focus to the eastern provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk, and began relying more heavily on artillery to defeat Ukrainian forces. > > Massed artillery fire has long been a central feature of Russian military doctrine, and in this case it allows devastating attacks on defending forces while putting fewer Russian troops at risk. Ukraine’s military too has turned to artillery, but it is running out of ammunition for its Soviet-era guns, and the artillery provided by NATO nations has limited range. > > The missile strikes launched in recent days from Russian bombers hundreds of miles away are a problem for which Kyiv has no adequate response, but you can’t occupy and hold territory using cruise missiles; it is artillery and armor that will decide who controls Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6491 "2022-07-04T12:22:06Z")
Meanwhile the war is grinding along. It’s a new phase of the war and new there’s new Russian objectives. The Guardian is quoting MoD’s twitter news release. [https://mobile.twitter.com/DefenceHQ](https://mobile.twitter.com/DefenceHQ) > [@](#): > > ## Russia’s focus will switch to capturing Donetsk, UK MoD says > > **Russia’s focus will now “almost certainly” switch to capturing the eastern region of Donetsk** after claiming victory over the city of Lysychansk, the UK Ministry of Defence has said. > > Ukrainian forces have withdrawn from Lysychansk, a frontline city in the Luhansk region, likely falling back to prepared defensive positions, the latest British intelligence report reads. > > Fighting in and around the city - the last remaining major population centre in Luhansk under Ukrainian control - has intensified over the past week with Russian forces making steady progress, the ministry adds. > > > Russia’s focus will now almost certainly switch to capturing Donetsk Oblast, a large portion of which remain under the control of Ukrainian forces. > > > > The fight for the Donbas has been grinding and attritional and this is highly unlikely to change in the coming weeks.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6492 "2022-07-04T13:06:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Dr. Dmitry Kolker died two days later. Yanked out of a stage 4 cancer ward. Life in Russia will be dangerous for many that aren’t accustomed to living in a authoritarian state. > > Site: [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/terminally-ill-russian-scientist-hauled-27376307](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/terminally-ill-russian-scientist-hauled-27376307) > > Site: [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/laser-scientist-dies-after-being-27385712](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/laser-scientist-dies-after-being-27385712) Cruelty is the point. Setting an example is the point. Terror is the point. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6493 "2022-07-04T13:12:12Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > NATO will have to escort Ukraine grain ships through the Black Sea. The _World_ can’t allow Russia to use starvation as a weapon. Sure it can. There is no thing too horrible to be used in war, and that hasn’t been used in war. Authoritarian governments are probably all on board with Russia using starvation as a weapon and international relations tool. If it works, other authoritarians will use it, too - where they aren’t already using it internally. Nations facing starvation kowtow to Russia to get food? Win for Russia. Nations actually starve and millions die? Fewer people to use resources, or defend them or to oppose invaders - also a win for authoritarians. We’re not dealing with nice people, or a Hollywood epic where people can be relied upon to act in a moral manner. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6494 "2022-07-04T13:42:35Z")
I’d like to believe some lessons were learned from WWII. A new cold war with Russia is being created. How far can they push. How loud can they yell Nukes? The world is going to be in serious trouble if we don’t have the intestinal fortitude to at least reflag vital grain ships and ensure they can be safely loaded without being attacked. The International community has to draw firms lines that Russia understands. Kennedy did it with the Cuba embargo. Safe passage of grain ships is much less confrontational. The current development of new relations with Russia will probably set the future for decades. I expect Putin’s successor will be just as bad and just as inclined to acquire territory. Russia may scare everyone and do what they want. That won’t be a good future for anybody. It would even hurt the US. We’re vulnerable to trade fluctuations in Europe. We could see a new Russian state even bigger than the Soviet Union. Every country they take will be filled will missile sites. I find it difficult to accept this isn’t a temporary situation. That Russia will revert back to a somewhat responsible nation. The Russian people seem quite content to lose their freedom and revert back to an authoritarian state. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6495 "2022-07-04T14:55:11Z")
A question for the thread… How concerned should we be about rearming Russia with acquired NATO weapons and equipment from Ukraine? We saw a substantial amount of US weapons and equipment fall into the new Taliban government’s hands. Battle lines get overrun. Equipment and weapons systems are spoils of war. Ukraine benefited early. Dragging away tanks with tractors. Russia is doing the same thing. Russia might get the launchers but have limited HIMARS rockets. I suspect China would quietly sell them to Russia. Everything is made in China. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6496 "2022-07-04T15:26:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > How concerned should we be about rearming Russia with acquired NATO weapons and equipment from Ukraine? In my opinion, not very concerned. First, I haven’t seen any examples of Russia capturing any NATO equipment and a quick search doesn’t bring up any reports of them doing so. Second, if they can’t manufacture advanced weapons of their own design, they aren’t going to have any success manufacturing ammunition for NATO equipment. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6497 "2022-07-04T15:48:13Z")
I saw some news that the newst and most advanced US drones require refitting with older guidance systems for Ukraine. We have to protect that technology. I can’t find that article now. I’m pretty sure the Grey Eagle has that most advanced guidance. Site: [U.S. Reportedly Aiming To Sell Ukraine Faster And More Powerful Armed Drones](https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharysmith/2022/06/01/us-reportedly-aiming-to-sell-ukraine-faster-and-more-powerful-armed-drones/) > [@](#): > > Ukraine has already received hundreds of drones, including [AeroVironment’s](https://www.forbes.com/companies/aerovironment/) [Switchblade](https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2991979/dod-more-javelins-approved-for-ukraine-switchblades-on-their-way/) and the Turkish-made [Bayraktar](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2022/05/10/new-turkish-bayraktar-drones-still-seem-to-be-reaching-ukraine/?sh=bd60340685b7), but the Gray Eagle—produced by General Atomics—is faster and more heavily armed than these systems, and is reusable, unlike the Switchblade. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6498 "2022-07-04T16:21:47Z")
Also, the NATO arms would require training to use, wouldn’t they? So the average Russian trooper couldn’t just grab one of the HIMARS and start using it? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6499 "2022-07-04T16:37:15Z")
They’re training Ukraine troops in Britain to use the HIMARS system. Its primarily the tech that needs protecting. I saw a photo of a damaged switchblade drone. The circuit board was intact. Iran started cloning our drones a decade ago. It is interesting to see all the NATO weapons dusted off and actually used. A lot of these weapon systems have never been deployed in war. They have to hope research,training, and testing is enough. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6500 "2022-07-04T16:42:41Z")
To aceplace57, I botched the quote function. How concerned should we be about rearming Russia with acquired NATO weapons and equipment from Ukraine? Most of what has been supplied is bog standard NATO weapons. No stealth fighters/helicopters, no modern battle tanks [M1, Challenger, Leopard], no sophisticated drones [that may change]. M4 carbines and associated 5.56mm ammunition, mortars, Javelin/Stinger/NLAWS missiles, 155mm howitzers both towed and self-propelled and 100’s of thousand of associated round, mines, grenades, communication equipment. Russia has examples of each from before and/or captured. They have limited capability to reproduce and in some cases, no desire to copy. Later high tech radar systems for tracking artillery shells and rockets are more valuable and as such are used further behind the combat lines. Systems such as HIMARS are in small numbers [training required] and are valued by the Ukranians. The guts of the system are standard rocket pods. The GMLRS [the precision guided missile] pretty much self-destructs on impact and the technology is well known. Other than an initial attempt to air assault an airport, Russian tactics have been slow moving, grind it out, artillery actions. We saw a substantial amount of US weapons and equipment fall into the new Taliban government’s hands. You’ll see a figure of $83 billion left behind by superficial administration critics. No one has provided an accounting of where that figure came from or can tie it to any material. Much of US spending was tied to infrastructure construction and fuel expenditures. It’s really hard to dig up hundreds of miles of concrete/asphalt runways, taxiway, aircraft and storage hardstands and carry back. 100s of miles of HESCO barriers, 1000s of plywood buildings, 100s of plywood living quarters, shitters and showers. 100s of hummers were left behind, mostly worn. 100s of MRAP troop carriers were left. Too massive to take out efficiently, huge fuel requirements, and now obsolete for US use. I understand 3 useable Blackhawk helicopters were in Taliban hands. Spare parts and mechanics not supplied. Doubtful if still flying. Commo gear was destroyed. Lots of NATO small arms and ammunition left. Taliban prefer Soviet/Russian pattern equipment, easier to maintain. Leaving all the junk obsolete stuff in a landlocked country with way too many big other problems wasn’t/shouldn’t be a concern. Battle lines get overrun. Equipment and weapons systems are spoils of war. Ukraine benefited early. Dragging away tanks with tractors. Russia is doing the same thing. The battle lines are and have been relatively stagnant. Ukraine has been conservative in tactical withdrawal to reduce opportunities for being surrounded and having troops and equipment captured in mass. Besides the munitions mentioned above, the Russians have claimed to capture a French Caesar self propelled howitzer. Still just a tube on a truck chassis. What they can glean from the aiming system would not benefit their artillery in the short term or longer. Russia might get the launchers but have limited HIMARS rockets. I suspect China would quietly sell them to Russia. Everything is made in China. Nah, all US made though allies have purchased data packages to produce their own rockets. Still standard munitions. Russia/China have their own MLRS equipment. The guidance part may be of some interest but both countries make similar products [though Russia is way behind in quantity production]. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6501 "2022-07-04T16:56:31Z")
That’s reassuring to know. Research is expensive and it requires protection for as long as possible. We have to consider the long term consequences of this new Cold war. NATO has to do extensive research on cyber warfare and protecting our satellites. We’ve been complacent for too long. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6502 "2022-07-04T18:36:32Z")
From Sky News in Britain 2 minute short from exhausted Ukrainian medic. The PTSD among the surviors will be a major concern. Ukraine has to start rotating personnel. Send them somewhere safe like Poland for R&R. Iryna Tsybuh would return ready to save more lives. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/W4fVSggqL7A/maxresdefault.jpg "Ukraine medic: 'I need sleep, Netflix and fast food'") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4fVSggqL7A) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6503 "2022-07-04T19:30:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Cynical, but with much truth in it. Cynical or not, NATO would in no way be helping Ukraine today if it weren’t for the fact that they were invaded by Russia, the dumb fucks. When the USSR was dissolved, due to a complicated history of votes between 1992 and 2014 Ukraine alternated leaning west and leaning east depending on who was in power. After the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014 the alternating was over and the bulk of Ukraine has looked west since, making some noises about joining the EU _and_ NATO in early 2019, shortly before Zelensky was elected. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2022, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6504 "2022-07-04T20:38:49Z")
The horrors of war are starting to be reported. I realize all wars are horrific. This one more so because the existence of a sovereign country is at stake. I wouldn’t be surprised if a mutual pause is negotiated. Both sides need time to reorganize and prepare. Find new replacements and continue fighting on. > **['Hell on earth': Ukrainian soldiers describe eastern front](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-donetsk-government-and-politics-f9f2b30b90a10b31f16aca18dae4eb65)** > > BAKHMUT, Ukraine (AP) — Torched forests and cities burned to the ground. Colleagues with severed limbs. Bombardments so relentless the only option is to lie in a trench, wait and pray. Ukrainian soldiers returning from the front lines in eastern... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=321) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=323)