# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 327
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6585 "2022-07-12T01:24:13Z")
> ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6586 "2022-07-12T01:36:52Z")
Confirmation of various twitter reports. A command center got hit and there should be high ranking casualties. ISW July 11 > [@](#): > > Ukrainian forces continued to strike Russian ammunition depots and command points in Kherson and Zaporizhia Oblast on July 11. Advisor to Kherson Oblast Military Administration Head Serhiy Khlan reported that Ukrainian forces struck a Russian command center and equipment concentration in Tavriisk (approximately 62km east of Kherson City).[24] Khlan stated that Russian forces moved a military equipment unloading site from Oleskhy (5km southeast of Kherson City) to Radensk (25km southeast of Kherson City), likely in response to increased Ukrainian strikes on Russian military infrastructure in and around Kherson City.[25] Khlan also stated that Russian forces are preparing for urban warfare in case a Ukrainian counteroffensive does reach Kherson City and have strengthened security and filtration measures around the city.[26] Ukrainian Strategic Communications Center noted that Ukrainian forces also struck a Russian ammunition depot in Tokmak, approximately 50km northeast of Melitopol on July 11 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2022, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6587 "2022-07-12T02:45:32Z")
It’s not surprising Iran wants to stick it to NATO. They’re providing several hundred UAV’s and training the Russians. > **[White House says Iran is preparing to supply Russia with weapons-capable...](https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/11/politics/iran-russia-weapons-capable-drones/index.html)** > > Newly declassified US intelligence indicates that Iran is expected to supply Russia with "hundreds" of drones -- including weapons-capable drones -- for use in the war in Ukraine, with Iran preparing to begin training Russian forces on how to operate... ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6588 "2022-07-14T00:48:45Z")
Let’s wait and see if this works out. It seems like Russia would welcome a chance to profit from grain in occupied lands. Ukraine won’t be happy seeing grain sold from their occupied lands. But they can still profit from the rest of their harvest. The UN is involved and maybe both sides will try and make the agreement work. > **[Turkey announces deal with Ukraine, Russia and UN aimed at resuming grain...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/14/turkey-announces-deal-with-ukraine-russia-and-un-aimed-at-resuming-grain-exports)** > > UN hails ‘critical step forward’ after meetings in Istanbul as Turkey says deal will be signed next week > [@](#): > > Turkey would also set up a coordination centre with [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine), Russia and the UN for grain exports, he said. > > Ukraine, which was invaded by [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) in February, had said earlier that a deal appeared “two steps away” as Turkey hosted the four-way talks in Istanbul. > The UN secretary general, António Guterres, said a “critical step forward” had been made toward reviving Ukrainian grain exports but cautioned that “more technical work will now be needed to materialise today’s progress”. > > “Today is an important and substantive step, a step on the way to a comprehensive agreement.” Ukraine and Russia had shown they could talk, but “for peace we still have a long way to go,” he told reporters in New York. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6589 "2022-07-14T07:50:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Let’s wait and see if this works out. It seems like Russia would welcome a chance to profit from grain in occupied lands. Great, let’s aid and abet theft on top of everything else. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Ukraine won’t be happy seeing grain sold from their occupied lands. But they can still profit from the rest of their harvest. Sure - if the Russians would stop shelling Ukrainian farmland long enough for there to be an actual harvest. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6590 "2022-07-14T10:50:18Z")
The grain exports are a real mess. Some people won’t have food this winter unless a solution is negotiated. It’s infuriating that Russia caused this crisis and there’s no way to hold them accountable. > **[More than 130 grain ships stuck in Black Sea as talks start in Istanbul](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/13/more-than-130-grain-ships-stuck-in-black-sea-as-talks-start-in-istanbul-between-ukraine-and-russia-and-others)** > > Negotiators from Russia, Ukraine, the UN and Turkey seek deal to enable exports to pass on to the Danube ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6591 "2022-07-14T11:37:13Z")
Amendment: no plausible, politically tenable way. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6592 "2022-07-14T15:25:17Z")
While not a silver bullet, the HIMARS/M270 seem to be having a significant impact, literally and figuratively. Depending on the source, there are either 8 or 9 HIMAR systems in use with another 4 on the way. Ukraine is asking for many (as in 50-100) more. So, why not send them 30-50? Too expensive? Afraid of the tech falling into Russian hands? Afraid to give Ukraine too much of an advantage? It looks like there is a chance that the long range (300 km) munitions will be sent, allowing Ukraine to either strike from safer positions or hit targets further behind Russian lines. Between U.S. and partisan targeting intel, things can’t be too pleasant for Russians near vital supplies or command posts. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6593 "2022-07-14T16:02:11Z")
You have to train troops to use the M270/HIMARS. These are not “pick any car in lane and drive off” rental cars. Even the training is incomplete. Targeting and firing - okay, there is still catch-up to do for maintainers. Logistics. These, especially the M270 tracked launcher, are big. The missile/rocket pods are massive. There are chains of C17s going back and forth but the demands for arms of all sorts is immense. Ships are slower; there are bottlenecks for ammunition ships. Very few ports in the US and Europe are even accessible for ammunition ships. Arrival in Europe is not the end game. Transport from port or airfield to final checks in Poland or other locations is daunting. Ammunition/explosives are closely controlled for routes and times. And you need trucks and railcars. Bridges and tunnels further impede quick transport. Our ammunition and equipment now goes over the border to Ukraine. Secrecy is involved. Rail transport is again a bottleneck - different track gauge [width] in Ukraine. AND it’s a long way from the border to the fight in far eastern Ukraine from the western border. Interruptions from missile attacks, need for security, matchup the equipment with the trained soldiers. Match up ammunition with the delivery systems. Whew! The truly smart guys are in logistics. No flashy videos, No loud booms [if we do our job correctly]. But we make the operation happen. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6594 "2022-07-14T18:24:33Z")
That all makes perfect sense. But does it mean were are training operators and forwarding these systems as fast as reasonably possible? If so, no one has come out and said it. I wonder how much the fear of prodding Russia into even more war crime types of attacks plays a role in the perceived slow delivery. Give them enough to make a fight of it and maybe even win. Just not enough to make Putin to do something really crazy. Like shoot down one of those C17s or use chemical weapons. I also wonder if there might more than the 8 or 9 systems that are admitted to be there. One one hand, it wouldn’t surprise me. On the other hand, it might be hard to keep it a secret. The shooting and scooting at night might muddy the waters in addition to protecting the assets. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6595 "2022-07-14T19:53:14Z")
There are 8 systems in country with 4 more on the way. GB is furnishing some [?] number of M270 MLRS tracked vehicles that may or may not be up to the latest standard for certain missiles. One reason for the perceived slow pace is that much of the army is transitioning from Warsaw Pact equipment to NATO standard items. This is a massive learning curve for everyone. So it’s not just HIMARS training; it includes counter-battery radars, 155mm and 105mm howitzers, self-propelled howitzers from different countries [German, Polish, French], different drones, anti-tank missiles and rockets, counter drone items, manpads, grenades, mines, demolition equipment, longer range anti-air missiles from Germany, GB and US, GPS equipment, radios, night vision equipment, on and on. And there is a language/alphabet barrier to overcome. You can’t stop the war and take everyone out and go train. This is on-the-fly training, tactics, coordination with existing systems and communications. From my perspective, it’s going about as well as possible. Ukrainians are highly motivated and pissed off. As more western systems arrive, the tables are turning. The precision guided munitions are a game changer. It’s no longer dig in a trench and static warfare. The reach is now 40 to 100 km into rear areas interrupting ammo, food, fuel and rest/regrouping areas. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6596 "2022-07-14T20:07:22Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > One reason for the perceived slow pace is that much of the army is transitioning from Warsaw Pact equipment to NATO standard items I’m betting there’s a good deal of, “Wow! We can _do_ that?” going on. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6597 "2022-07-14T20:22:53Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > That all makes perfect sense. But does it mean were are training operators and forwarding these systems as fast as reasonably possible? If so, no one has come out and said it. I would think logistics of weapons and ammunition transport are one of those things you DON’T want to be public knowledge. We the general public _shouldn’t_ have information on that, because that would mean the enemy would also have that information. No news is good news because loose lips sink ships. Or blow up munitions, as the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6598 "2022-07-14T22:11:05Z")
How long will that grain be viable? ---
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2022, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6599 "2022-07-14T23:01:35Z")
I’ve made bread with wheat that was 20+ years old. Didn’t rise quite as well as made with fresh wheat, maybe not 100% nutritional value but tasted fine, I’m sure it had calories. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6600 "2022-07-15T02:12:51Z")
I remember in childhood that women excused themselves to powder their nose. They probably did touch up their makeup _after using the restroom_. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6601 "2022-07-15T02:37:29Z")
Darn it. Posted that in the wrong thread. The two threads must have been next to each other. My fat finger got the wrong one. Disregard ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6602 "2022-07-15T09:32:37Z")
I admit I was deeply intrigued to see where that one was going in the context of this thread… ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6603 "2022-07-15T13:07:31Z")
women now excuse themselves to repel invaders, then powder their nose? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6604 "2022-07-15T13:24:30Z")
I’m guessing that, given the rapid reloading and rate of fire of HIMARS, it makes little difference whether Ukraine has 12 or 100, as long as they are all supplied with enough rockets to keep up striking any Russian targets within range (except that, with just 12, there are going to be some un-covered gaps on the front lines) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=326) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=328)