# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 330
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6645 "2022-07-17T13:58:45Z")
Apparently, those kind of cargo was made by Ukrainian, Belarusian or Russian air companies, with low maintenance and old air crafts. since February, the Ukrainians companies got the monopoly but continue to use dangerously under maintained planes. This one is the third incident in the last week, the others managed to land in emergency. Seems like an ordinary air accident. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6646 "2022-07-17T14:48:04Z")
I suspect Greece will insist on changes. They have quite a dangerous mess to clean up. I wonder how many lives were saved because the munitions didn’t reach Bangladesh? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6647 "2022-07-17T14:59:16Z")
why were there 8 crew members on board? it should have had 4. 2 pilots, an engineer, and a loadmaster. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6648 "2022-07-17T17:11:10Z")
I would hitch a ride on contract DHL flights in Afghanistan in AN-12s. Pilot, co-pilot, engineer, navigator, loadmaster, and maybe an extra load grunt, DHL representative were typical. The AN-12 would have an unpressurized cargo hold but there would be a pressure bulkhead up front and a couple rows of seats. Interestingly, you boarded the plane by climbing up stairs attached to the forward landing gear. How you’d get out in a crash landing? - well, I didn’t dwell on it. > **[Antonov An-12 (14 YELLOW) Aircraft Pictures & Photos - AirTeamImages.com](https://www.airteamimages.com/antonov-an-12_14YELLOW_russia---russian-navy_314262.html)** > > Photo of Russia - Russian Navy Antonov An-12 (14 YELLOW) taken in -, Russia on 2018-06-00 by Javi Sanchez Utzet of AirTeamImages.com ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6649 "2022-07-17T17:24:47Z")
"All 12 HIMARS promised by the U.S. have now been delivered to the Ukrainians, the official said. However, it was unknown whether any of [the latest shipment of four](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/four-more-himars-launchers-heading-to-ukraine-bringing-total-to-12) are being used in combat yet. Asked by _The War Zone_ if Ukraine is using U.S. intelligence to help guide HIMARS targeting, the official offered a purposefully vague response. “We’re helping the Ukrainians,” the official said. “I’m not gonna provide particulars as to how that works. But we’ve been able to give them information and they’ve been able to use that information the way they choose to do so.” “Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov on Friday announced his nation has received its first tranche of M270s.” > **[Ukraine Gets First M270 Multiple Launch Rocket Systems](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-gets-first-m270-multiple-launch-rocket-systems)** > > The M270 in Ukrainian hands is bad news for the Russians who are already suffering from HIMARS attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6650 "2022-07-17T21:27:23Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > I would hitch a ride on contract DHL flights in Afghanistan in AN-12s. Pilot, co-pilot, engineer, navigator, loadmaster, and maybe an extra load grunt, DHL representative were typical. The original design of the plane had a navigator position but that position was replaced by GPS a long long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6651 "2022-07-17T21:37:59Z")
It’s amazing how much Putin seems to be following Hitler’s playbook. He has created a [super weapon program](https://eurasiantimes.com/putins-super-weapons-than-even-us-president-termed-impossible-to-intercept/) like Hitler did and now he’s created a [Soviet youth group](https://dnyuz.com/2022/07/16/putin-aims-to-shape-a-new-generation-of-supporters-through-schools/). He just needs to grow the mustache and it will be complete. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6652 "2022-07-18T02:04:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The original design of the plane had a navigator position but that position was replaced by GPS a long long time ago. Not on the AN-12s DHL was contracting in Afghanistan. This was around 2004-2006 time frame/deployments True, he/they were usually dressed in tennis shirt, shorts, and shoes; and slept the whole time on most flights. But he was there. DNL contracted the planes from some Balkan country airline. Two in some sort of a rotation. Bahrain, to Khandhar, to Bagram, Lahore Pakistan for fuel then back to Bahrain. Sometimes Oman was included or Kuwait City. Generally more reliable schedule wise than random C-130s or the rare C-17. On a weird note; the engineer initially sat sideways behind the pilot facing the starboard side of the aircraft. For takeoff and flight, he’d pull up a pin, swing into a position between the pilot and co-pilot, relock the seat and monitor the gauges for the four engines during the flight. He was suspended on this swing arm several feet above the “exit” down the front landing gear. On one plane, lowering the gear always involved finishing the extension by vigorously pumping a manual lever to get a “lock” light. War story time: On my way back to Bagram from Kandahar on DHL, wind and dust at Bagram [common occurrence] prevented a landing even after 3 attempts. Went to Kabul, noticed the nice swimming pools at various embassies (yep). Nudged the DHL rep awake with the “where not in Kansas anymore” line. He somewhat flips, but there’s a backup. Calls the Kabul DHL office and organizes a bunch of trucks to offload the plane at the airport. Pilot pulls out a wad of US twenties to pay the landing fee - in cash. DHL crew unloads plane including a minivan for a humanitarian group. I’m invited and off we go through the Turkish NATO camp [they were in charge of Kabul airport at that time] and out the gate so there is not “departure” fee for the shipments. Stuff get stored at the local DHL warehouse for that night. I stay at the DHL compound in the shadows of the US Embassy [really high walls]. Enjoyed real steak, real Czech Budweiser beer, salad, and fried potatoes. Reload the shipment the next day and drive up to Bagram on the back road. I’m in uniform [US] even as a US Army civilian so we get through the checkpoints fine. It also works for our little convoy getting on base without hassle. Repaid my overnight stay and meals. A couple of years later I read one of the DHL guys was killed by one of their guards that got religion. Glad I missed that. /end story Back to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6653 "2022-07-18T03:03:14Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > On a weird note; the engineer initially sat sideways behind the pilot facing the starboard side of the aircraft. For takeoff and flight, he’d pull up a pin, swing into a position between the pilot and co-pilot, relock the seat and monitor the gauges for the four engines during the flight. He was suspended on this swing arm several feet above the “exit” down the front landing gear. On one plane, lowering the gear always involved finishing the extension by vigorously pumping a manual lever to get a “lock” light. thanks for sharing the stories. tried to look up a picture of an AN-12 cockpit to get an idea of what you’re talking about. [Found a 4 panel video of an AN-12 landing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4B_TOcA2Qk) that is one weird airplane. Looks like the Pilot has engine controls off to the left instead of a common quadrant of levers. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6654 "2022-07-18T03:29:55Z")
[![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ayrvxd6lmmU/sddefault.jpg) ](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ayrvxd6lmmU/sddefault.jpg) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ayrvxd6lmmU/hqdefault.jpg "Flying the Antonov 12 with cockpit footage and cargo door lowered inflight") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayrvxd6lmmU) Shows a flight. Co-pilot has set of throttles by his right hand rather than a central set both pilots can use - duh Steve - the darn engineer is in the way. On the older versions, the navigator would be behind the co-pilot. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6655 "2022-07-18T03:46:33Z")
The cracks are starting. People are picking sides and choosing loyalties. It’s a extremely difficult choice in occupied areas. Site: [Zelenskiy fires Ukraine’s spy chief and top state prosecutor | Volodymyr Zelenskiy | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/17/zelenskiy-fires-ukraines-spy-chief-and-top-state-prosecutor) > [@](#): > > Volodymyr Zelenskiy has fired the head of Ukraine’s powerful domestic security agency, the SBU, and the state prosecutor general, citing dozens of cases of collaboration with Russia by officials in their agencies. > > Sunday’s abrupt sackings of SBU chief Ivan Bakanov, a childhood friend of Zelenskiy, and the prosecutor general, Iryna Venediktova, who played a key role in the prosecution of Russian war crimes, were announced in executive orders on the president’s website. > > In a Telegram post, Zelenskiy said he had fired the top officials because it had come to light that many members of their agencies had collaborated with Russia, a problem that he said had touched other agencies as well. > > He said 651 cases of alleged treason and collaboration had been opened against prosecutorial and law enforcement officials, and that more than 60 officials from Bakanov and Venediktova’s agencies were now working against [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) in Russian-occupied territories. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6656 "2022-07-18T13:55:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > **This recruitment effort will likely be expensive if it comes close to meeting its targets.** It appears that the Russian Ministry of Defense will pay the volunteers’ salaries while the “federal subjects” will pay their enlistment bonuses. Salaries generally start at roughly $3,000 per month per soldier or about $1.2 million per month per 400-man unit. Enlistment bonuses offered by at least some units appear to be roughly a month’s salary. If the effort generates 85 battalions each of 400 men it would bring an additional 34,000 volunteers into the fight at the cost of about $102 million per month in salary alone. Considering that the 30 days of training the volunteers will receive before entering combat will not produce combat-ready soldiers, that price is very high. I wonder how this will play out. They are paying new recruits a whole lot more than all the currently serving contract troopers are getting paid and are receiving much less training. How would feel about it if you learned that some clueless chucklehead you’re serving with that’s potentially placing your life in jeopardy was getting paid almost ten times what you are? I can’t imagine that’s going to improve morale much. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6657 "2022-07-18T14:05:42Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > I wonder how this will play out. > > They are paying new recruits a whole lot more than all the currently serving contract troopers are getting paid and are receiving much less training. How would feel about it if you learned that some clueless chucklehead you’re serving with that’s potentially placing your life in jeopardy was getting paid almost ten times what you are? I can’t imagine that’s going to improve morale much. IIRC there were some stories a while back, about a month ago or so, of some new recruits deserting or even mutinying against their commanding officer because they weren’t being paid what had been promised. I don’t have any cites handy, but I do recall reading some articles about that happening. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6658 "2022-07-18T16:32:18Z")
There’s embedded links that are very good. I agree with this editorial. Winter is coming and Putin will shut off the gas. Cold homes and businesses will reduce support for Ukraine. The recommend solution is NATO’s forceful military action before it is too late. Long Editorial. I skipped over a lot of it. Site: [Putin is already at war with Europe. There is only one way to stop him | Simon Tisdall | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/17/putin-is-already-at-war-with-europe-there-is-only-one-way-to-stop-him) > [@](#): > > By [weaponising energy](https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-russia-energy-gas-crunch-nord-stream-shutoff-ukraine-war/), food, refugees and information, Russia’s leader spreads the economic and political pain, creating wartime conditions for all. A long, cold, calamity-filled European [winter of power shortages](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/14/europe-could-face-energy-rationing-as-really-tough-winter-looms-shell-boss-warns) and turmoil looms. And like a coin-fed gas meter, the price of western leaders’ timidity and shortsightedness ticks upwards by the hour. > > Russia’s destabilisation operations, social media manipulation, cyber-attacks, diplomatic double-talk, nuclear blackmail, plus its unrelenting [slaughter of civilians](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/ua/2022-06-29/2022-06-UkraineArmedAttack-EN.pdf) in Ukraine, will only intensify Europe’s state of siege in the months ahead. The west’s fanciful belief it could avoid continent-wide escalation is evaporating fast. > > (Snip,Snip) > > Freezing pensioners, hungry children, empty supermarket shelves, unaffordable cost of living increases, devalued wages, strikes and street protests point to Sri Lanka-style meltdowns. An exaggeration? Not really. Blowback, fanned by the Putin-admiring [far right](https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-far-right-split-by-russia-ukraine-war/a-61283065), is already gathering strength in Greece and Italy, [the Netherlands and Spain](http://newfascismsyllabus.com/contributions/ukrainian-dispatches/russia-the-dutch-far-right-and-the-politics-of-world-war-ii-remembrance/). > > In prospect, too, is a shattering of EU solidarity as national governments compete for scarce resources. Brussels is due to publish a “winter preparedness plan” this week. But its provisions are unclear and unenforceable. The broader context is lack of an agreed, implemented [EU-wide energy policy](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/18/eu-plans-massive-increase-in-green-energy-to-rid-itself-of-reliance-on-russia). ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6659 "2022-07-18T18:09:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > There’s embedded links that are very good. I agree with this editorial. Winter is coming and Putin will shut off the gas. Cold homes and businesses will reduce support for Ukraine. > > The recommend solution is NATO’s forceful military action before it is too late. > > Long Editorial. I skipped over a lot of it. > > Site: [Putin is already at war with Europe. There is only one way to stop him | Simon Tisdall | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/17/putin-is-already-at-war-with-europe-there-is-only-one-way-to-stop-him) So I skimmed that editorial too. I agree with the author in that support for the conflict is likely to wane over the winter, especially if/when Russia turns off the gas to Europe, but where he completely loses me is with this notion that by NATO attacking Russian forces it’s somehow going to avoid the terrible economic impacts imposed by Putin’s weaponization of energy. Show of hands: who here thinks Russia will keep the energy running once NATO starts direct (conventional) military involvement in Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6660 "2022-07-18T18:23:52Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > but where he completely loses me is with this notion that by NATO attacking Russian forces it’s somehow going to avoid the terrible economic impacts imposed by Putin’s weaponization of energy. I think they demonstrate the limits of their intellect when they refer to “western leaders’ timidity and shortsightedness”, while also acknowledging “nuclear blackmail”. When nukes are on the table, you can complain about timidity, or you can complain about shortsightedness, but it’s a bit disingenuous to complain about _both._ This just feels like more, “Why aren’t we Manly Men anymore?” whining. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6661 "2022-07-18T18:40:25Z")
I think the ship has sailed for NATO to fight in Ukraine. They should have forced the Russians back before Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk were destroyed and occupied. Somehow stopping an offense seems less provocative than driving the Russians out of hard fought territory. It’s like grabbing a kid’s hand as he reaches for a cookie. He may cry for a minute. _Take that cookie_ from his mouth and he’ll roll on the floor with a temper tantrum. A lot depends on Russia’s next moves. They may try to occupy Kharkiv again. That could be a time when NATO takes a stand. Perhaps a large airstrike against Russian logistics inside Ukraine. Blow up the railways they use for supplies. Don’t deliberately target the bases or troops. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6662 "2022-07-18T18:57:22Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They may try to occupy Kharkiv again. The Russians can’t occupy Kharkiv _again_, because they haven’t occupied for a first time. They had Kharkiv under seige, almost surrounded, and subjected it to rather a lot of shelling, but they didn’t occupy it. Anyways, direct NATO participation in the war has never really been on the table due to the risk of escalation to a nuclear exchange. You can decry that policy on the basis that you don’t think Putin would push the big red button if you like, but that isn’t going to do anything to alter NATO’s stance on the subject. NATO forces are not going to directly participate in this war unless Russia makes a move on a NATO member. Aside from stuff they’re already doing, like feeding Ukraine info from surveillance satellites on Russian positions, the better to target their HIMARS, but that’s all easily deniable. It’s not the Ukrainians don’t have plenty of potential partisans who could be providing that same information. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6663 "2022-07-18T19:02:31Z")
I think it’s essential this war ends before Winter. Freezing temps and no gas will give Putin all the leverage he needs. The political pressure has already ratcheted up. Winter is still 4 months away. > **[Exclusive: Russia's Gazprom tells European buyers gas supply halt beyond its...](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russias-gazprom-declares-force-majeure-gas-supplies-europe-2022-07-18/)** > > Russia's Gazprom has told customers in Europe it cannot guarantee gas supplies because of "extraordinary" circumstances, according to a letter seen by Reuters, upping the ante in an economic tit-for-tat with the West over Moscow's invasion of... ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6664 "2022-07-18T19:08:35Z")
Leverage on who? Maybe some supporters of Ukraine will stop supporting them, but there’s no incentive for Ukraine to agree to peace on unfavorable terms. The U.S. will certainly continue helping. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=329) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=331)