# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 341
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6865 "2022-07-30T03:17:20Z")
Also. When a democratically elected government in Ukraine was favorable to relations with Russia. That government was deposed, very violently. Not by democratic means. A portion of Ukraine citizens decided that their votes were more legitimate than riots, and decided to leave the now undemocratic Ukraine. So is it better for Ukraine to attack those people, or for Russia to defend those people? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6866 "2022-07-30T03:26:15Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > NATO has very obviously for decades cast Russia as an enemy. So it seems quite logical for Russia to be concerned about a bordering country to join NATO. NATO is a defensive alliance, because the member fear Russia will invade other countries. Russia has nothing to fear from NATO. NATO has not, and never has had, any intention of invading Russia. Russia’s actions in Ukraine clearly show that NATO is the Good Guy, and Russia is basically Nazi Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6867 "2022-07-30T03:26:51Z")
Paranoid? Oh come on now. Russia is cast as the big bad evil empire constantly. Not paranoid for them to think some folks might have it out for them. But also. It is on the whole a good thing that so many nations have very civil borders. Their squabbles are at mostly low levels. Conducting things through negotiations. A few ongoing hot spots that are so frustrating. I really wish we could get over the fear of someone wanting to rule the world, and the desire of some to try and rule the world. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6868 "2022-07-30T03:30:48Z")
Regardless of how one wants to spin their desires: if Russia wants a buffer zone, they can pay for it themselves. Not make their neighbors pay for it. If they think giving up their own territory is too expensive, then tough cookies. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6869 "2022-07-30T03:33:43Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > As recently as 2012, Mitt Romney was widely mocked for calling Russia an enemy. This isn’t true. He was mocked for calling Russia the biggest geopolitical foe of the US, not that they were a foe at all. He was wrong and that statement would still be wrong today. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6870 "2022-07-30T03:35:15Z")
NATO has attacked other countries. Fact. Russia has realized that the Soviet Union was too big and unruly a thing to exist. The hard core socialist scheme the same. They have not desired expansion for a long time now. But in return they requested that NATO not expand around them. I really think that the U.S. is the one that was most worried about Russia and Western Europe coming to best of terms and integration. Russia kept trying for decades to improve relations and trade with Western Europe. And it did happen to some extent. To mutual benefit. But that would increase the power of Europe in general. And then China rising up in power as well. So the U.S. via NATO, Ukraine, stirs the pot. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6871 "2022-07-30T03:38:38Z")
So NATO can declare a bunch of countries buffer zones too, of course. Best case. NATO and the countries they are defending against, select all the countries bordering to be buffers. All done. OH NO. Not equal tit for tat. Only NATO perceived enemies must do that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6872 "2022-07-30T03:46:21Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > NATO has attacked other countries. Fact. And when have they threatened to attack Russia? They haven’t. The sole reason for NATO is to defend against invasions by the Soviet Union/Russia. > [@Kedikat](#): > > But in return they requested that NATO not expand around them. Why do you think other countries felt/feel the need to apply for NATO membership? Could it be because they thought Russia might invade? Of course, Russia would never invade another country. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6873 "2022-07-30T04:12:04Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Why do you think other countries felt/feel the need to apply for NATO membership? Could it be because they thought Russia might invade? Of course, Russia would never invade another country. Oh, wait… Kind of circular. But that does happen a lot. So you are kind of right to note it. Do something to prevent something, but that action increases the reason/probability of it happening. But of course there may be other things you can do that decrease the probability. That is the hard thing to finger out. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6874 "2022-07-30T04:15:58Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Kind of circular. No, it isn’t. NATO exists to defend against Russian aggression. Russia is aggressive, and has invaded a sovereign country with absolutely zero justification. Which proves the NATO alliance was and is right. You say ‘I am not championing Russia. This is a terrible war. A waste of life and destruction.’ But you are defending Russia’s actions. This war is 100% Russian aggression, and is 100% indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6875 "2022-07-30T04:16:52Z")
I edited while you posted retort. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6876 "2022-07-30T04:22:52Z")
Refresh my memory. When did Yugoslavia and Libya attack a NATO country? > **[List of NATO operations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations)** > > Although the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) was present throughout the Cold War as the opposite to the Warsaw Pact, and conducted joint military exercises, no military operations took place. All military NATO operations have occurred after the Cold War when NATO's influence in a post-Cold War rose to prominence in Bosnia where NATO gradually stepped up its efforts to end the trouble. This culminated with NATO's first air campaign in 1995, Operation Deliberate Force, which targeted ... NATO is often a wild card as to what they do. And Russia as well. So they have issues. So they have security needs. Russia at this point is militarily enforcing theirs. As NATO does. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6877 "2022-07-30T04:30:21Z")
And so you believe NATO would invade Russia? Nonsense. The NATO operations, specified by you, Yugoslavia and Libya, we performed under UN resolutions. As such, they were UN operations. Russia did no oppose the interventions. Again: The Russian invasion of a sovereign nation without any provocation is completely indefensible. Their ‘security needs’ are imaginary. So why are you trying to defend the actions of a fascist dictator/monster? ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6878 "2022-07-30T04:37:06Z")
I am stating, not defending, some of Russia’s incentives for this. Stating facts is not championing them. I do in fact think that it is the U.S. that is mostly to blame for it coming to war. Not Ukraine itself. But the U.S. setting up Ukraine to use as a proxy. And that is just disgusting. I feel that certain parts of the U.S. government are willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. And I am freaked out about this stupid trip by Pelosi to Taiwan. Not because I think Taiwan should be consumed by China. I think it should be a sovereign nation. But the game of chicken is going to get a lot of people killed. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6879 "2022-07-30T04:42:15Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > So why are you trying to defend the actions of a fascist dictator/monster? Well that sentence just lowers my valuation of your opinions /knowledge. It is so propagandist. Even **western media and intelligence services** know Putin has stellar approval ratings in Russia. Higher than any other leader in the world? He does not need to be a dictator. He has the popular approval. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6880 "2022-07-30T04:50:42Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Well that sentence just lowers my valuation of your opinions /knowledge. Ah. The old ad hominem. Do object to the ‘fascism’ part? Let me post a definition: ‘ **fascism** : a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.’ This describes Putin exactly. > [@Kedikat](#): > > t is so propagandist. Oh? What about this? > [@Kedikat](#): > > Even **western media and intelligence services** know Putin has stellar approval ratings in Russia. Higher than any other leader in the world? Could it be that Putin controls the propaganda? That he has quashed all opposition? ‘Even western media and intelligence know Putin has stellar approval ratings in Russia’? Well, no kidding. In Russia, it’s approve of Putin, or else get sent to prison. Or assassinated. Your mention of Western media and intelligence does not say that they think Putin is right; only that he has forced and/or tricked Russians into supporting him through intimidation. > [@Kedikat](#): > > I do in fact think that it is the U.S. that is mostly to blame for it coming to war. Not Ukraine itself. But the U.S. setting up Ukraine to use as a proxy. Bullshit. The United States would much rather have good relations with a sane Russia. The U.S. did nothing to promote this war. Ukraine did nothing to promote this war. Russia, specifically Putin, entered into this war of choice without provocation. To believe otherwise is to believe Putin’s propaganda. It’s the same as Trump supporters believing Trump actually won the election. He didn’t. And Putin’s ‘justifications’ for invading a sovereign, peaceful country are lies as blatant as Trump’s. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6881 "2022-07-30T04:55:47Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Well that sentence just lowers my valuation of your opinions /knowledge. It is so propagandist. Even **western media and intelligence services** know Putin has stellar approval ratings in Russia. Higher than any other leader in the world? > He does not need to be a dictator. He has the popular approval. Do you seriously think that Putin has higher “approval ratings” than Kim Jong Un? ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6882 "2022-07-30T05:03:57Z")
Ha! Good one. Yeah you got me. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6883 "2022-07-30T05:08:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Bullshit. The United States would much rather have good relations with a sane Russia. The U.S. did nothing to promote this war. Ukraine did nothing to promote this war. Russia, specifically Putin, entered into this war of choice without provocation. To believe otherwise is to believe Putin’s propaganda. It’s the same as Trump supporters believing Trump actually won the election. He didn’t. And Putin’s ‘justifications’ for invading a sovereign, peaceful country are lies as blatant as Trump’s. I just disagree. I feel I have historical evidence to back me up. But you disagree. So we are at that point. As far as the day to day situations in Ukraine and some other things in the world. I recommend my list of sources. Of course you can disagree with them. I disagree with various sources. But maybe take them in as one of many streams. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6884 "2022-07-30T05:11:30Z")
Of course there are no collaborations of that rating in western press or intelligence. Just laughter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=340) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=342)