# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 342
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6885 "2022-07-30T05:16:50Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I recommend my list of sources odysee is a far-right, extremist site, and thus not a reliable source. Let’s apply Occam’s Razor. If the whole world agrees that Putin/Russia is wrong, and Putin/Russia says they’re not, which side is more likely to be correct? Hint: Not Putin/Russia. You say you have historical evidence to back you up, but I don’t see it. ‘NATO operated under UN resolutions [Russia is on the Security Council] against Libya, therefore NATO wants to invade Russia’ is nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6886 "2022-07-30T05:24:15Z")
The whole world does not say he is wrong. Odysee does not have a far right admission rule. It has a wide variety of stuff. Broad historical, not limited to U.N. stuff. Does NATO snap to action on every U.N. call to action? Not so much… ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6887 "2022-07-30T06:08:28Z")
They’re called the Biber as they will lay a bridge Justin time for troops to cross. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6888 "2022-07-30T07:38:37Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Russia is cast as the big bad evil empire constantly. If they don’t want to be called evil, then maybe they should stop doing evil things like invading their neighbors, committing brutal war crimes, and engaging in destructive cyberwarfare against nations and private organizations that have not been aggressive against Russia. > [@Kedikat](#): > > I wish that there would be an immediate ceasefire. The Donbass areas be granted independence. Russian forces withdraw. Crimea hold another referendum to ensure it be validated internationally. > Ukraine and Russia sign a nonaggression pact. The Donbass and Crimea regions become a free trade zone between West and East. Ukraine nation be neutral. For someone who claims not to champion the Russian point of view, you sure do champion the Russian point of view. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6889 "2022-07-30T08:25:43Z")
Yes, Russia is an enemy, and we see now why we were wise to see them as such. And we see now why Ukraine was wise to want to join NATO. Because Putin, by his own words, does not see Ukraine as a real country, but rather part of Russia unjustly taken away. The “security concerns” rationalization was always bullshit. By Putin’s own words, and the words of his minions in Russia, he always wanted to swallow up Ukraine. And now he is trying to do so. H4 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6890 "2022-07-30T08:32:03Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Also. > When a democratically elected government in Ukraine was favorable to relations with Russia. That government was deposed, very violently. Not by democratic means. > A portion of Ukraine citizens decided that their votes were more legitimate than riots, and decided to leave the now undemocratic Ukraine. > So is it better for Ukraine to attack those people, or for Russia to defend those people? This is bullshit. Putin tried to set up a pro Russian government in Ukraine, and the Ukrainian people totally rejected it and elected leadership that wanted to be closer to the West. The Ukrainian people wanted to be closer the rest of Europe, and not dominated by Russia. And we can see now they were very smart to favor the West - because Putin wanted to swallow them up. Zelenskyy has sky high popularity in Ukraine because the Ukrainian people want Russia to get out of their country. This was a war of choice, a war of agression, because of Putin’s delusions about Ukraine. Not because of the US or anyone but Putin. His choice to invade Ukraine, which was no threat to Russia at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6891 "2022-07-30T08:44:59Z")
That lie by Putin - that the Revolution of Dignity in 2014 which expelled Yanukovych and cemented the pro-EU and pro-West sentiments among the Ukrainian people was illegitimate (and thus the current government of Ukraine is illegitimate) - is a terrible and insidious lie. Putin just can’t face the obvious fact that the Ukrainian people would overwhelmingly prefer to be allied with the West than dominated by Russia. And that’s why he went to war, because he wants to restore Russian domination of Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6892 "2022-07-30T10:18:07Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > He does not need to be a dictator. I will grant you that. He does not _ **need** _ to be a dictator. Care to explain why he _ **chosen** _ to be and currently _ **is** _ a dictator? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6893 "2022-07-30T11:17:55Z")
Moderating: @Kedikat and those arguing with @Kedikat : this is the MPSIMS breaking news thread. It is not in p&e and this is not the right place for political arguments. Please everyone take that stuff somewhere else, such as a new p&e or pit thread. I have not been actively monitoring this thread. If there are any more politicized posts, please report them and I’ll moderate, which might include warnings and/or thread bans. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6894 "2022-07-30T11:47:13Z")
Short 2 min video about the German Gepard tank AA gun. Germany promised 15 in April. A few have been delivered. The exact numbers haven’t been reported. Originally developed in the 1960’s it’s been upgraded several times. Should give Ukraine another mobile option for defending against helicopters and planes. I think Ukrainian crews received training in Germany. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/14BK0HghiqE/maxresdefault.jpg "35mm is.......big") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14BK0HghiqE) Longer article about the AA gun > **[Germany's Gepard: The Powerhouse of Dual 35mm Autocannons](https://tankhistoria.com/cold-war/gepard/)** > > The Gepard is everyone's favourite self-propelled anti-aircraft gun. This double-barrelled beast was designed by the Germans in the 1960s and is still in > [@](#): > > The Gepard (German for Cheetah) was built on the hull of the equally legendary Leopard 1. This coupling created one of the most formidable self-propelled anti-aircraft guns (SPAAGs) ever made. > > It carries its own radar system and two 35 mm Oerlikon autocannons that are effective out to a range of 5,500 meters. But the Gepard is not only useful against targets in the air. Its devastating twin-guns can be lowered and used against ground targets if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6895 "2022-07-30T11:59:46Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Or is this only applicable to Russia and other nations that are not favored by you? Russia is the one that’s acting paranoid about “NATO on the border”, even though none of it’s border states have ever made any aggressive move towards Russia. Putin’s complaints about NATO are nonsensical, while Ukraine’s complaints about Russia are based on actual Russian aggression against Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2022, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6896 "2022-07-30T12:07:52Z")
@Horatius , please drop the topic, or take it to a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6897 "2022-07-31T08:35:23Z")
Maybe a Local Russian that opposes the war? Can Ukraine’s drones reach Sevastopol? Could be a false flag attack to get support for the war, or cancel the grain deal. [https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/drone-explosion-hits-russias-black-sea-fleet-hq-87698153oul](https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/drone-explosion-hits-russias-black-sea-fleet-hq-87698153oul) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6898 "2022-07-31T09:17:31Z")
Reuters also has the story. Imho the attack is too small for Ukraine. It doesn’t accomplish enough to make the retaliatory strikes worthwhile. > **[Russian official says Ukraine carried out drone attack on Black Sea fleet HQ](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-official-says-ukraine-carried-out-drone-attack-black-sea-fleet-hq-2022-07-31/)** > > A senior official in Russian-annexed Crimea accused Ukraine on Sunday of carrying out a drone attack ahead of planned celebrations to mark Navy Day, injuring five and forcing the cancellation of festivities. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6899 "2022-07-31T16:28:04Z")
I’ve likely missed it: has Russia shown a similar drone capability to Ukraine? Or is that not something they’ve relied on too much so far? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6900 "2022-07-31T17:38:19Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I’ve likely missed it: has Russia shown a similar drone capability to Ukraine? Oh Russia, as in most categories, actually had a much larger fleet of them to start with. Most are surveillance, by numbers predominantly the [Orlan-10](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlan-10). They lag a fair bit behind the U.S. in drone technology, but they are certainly working to play catch up and have started building a limited number of bigger strike drones like a reverse-engineered version of the [Israeli Searcher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Searcher) and the native [Orion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronshtadt_Orion). Here’s an [article from early July](https://www.businessinsider.com/drones-russia-ukraine-war-electronic-warfare-2022-7) talking about the decline in effectiveness of Ukraine’s drone fleet as Russia has slowly gotten their shit together in terms of air defense and Ukraine’s own difficulties dealing with Russian surveillance drones. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6901 "2022-07-31T18:12:03Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > NATO has very obviously for decades cast Russia as an enemy. > **[Putin Says 'Why Not?' to Russia Joining NATO](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/06/putin-says-why-not-to-russia-joining-nato/c1973032-c10f-4bff-9174-8cae673790cd/)** > **[Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Atlantic_Partnership_Council)** > > The Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (EAPC) is a post–Cold War, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) institution. The EAPC is a multilateral forum created to improve relations between NATO and non-NATO countries in Europe and Central Asia. States meet to cooperate and discuss political and security issues. It was formed on 29 May 1997 at a Ministers’ meeting held in Sintra, Portugal, as the successor to the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (NACC), which was created in 1991. > The EAPC pro... [https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics\_82584.htm](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_82584.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6902 "2022-07-31T18:32:23Z")
Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6903 "2022-07-31T19:30:06Z")
Serbia is claiming that Kosovo is going to attack them and Kosovo is sounding sirens. Serbia is a strong friend of Russia. A war in the Balkans would certainly divert attention from Ukraine. Fingers crossed it doesn’t come to pass. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/6904 "2022-07-31T19:31:37Z")
Link please? I found this: > **[War appears imminent between Serbia and Kosovo](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/7/31/2113713/-War-appears-imminent-between-Serbia-and-Kosovo?utm_campaign=recent)** > > As if there wasn’t enough to worry about in the world already, it looks like Serbia is about to provoke a war with its breakaway region of Kosovo. As you likely recall, mostly Muslim Kosovo broke away from Serbia back in the 90s, starting a war... I guess this needs to spin off to a new thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=341) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=343)