# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 350
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7045 "2022-08-09T15:44:52Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > the M1 gobbles fuel (and it’s jet fuel) The M1 can run on [diesel, jet fuel, gasoline, and marine diesel](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/0902dp-m1-abrams-tank/) according to the linked article. It’s still very thirsty though, and that can’t be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7046 "2022-08-09T16:02:22Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > It’s also worth mentioning that no matter how a potential ground-launched AGM-88 is boosted (it at all), its range would be significantly decreased compared to air launch. We are talking a huge penalty here, especially without a booster. It says the range is 30 miles. Air launched I suppose. Would even the ground launched range be good enough to take out artillery radar? So much artillery dueling going on. It would be a great help if Ukraine could take that out. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7047 "2022-08-09T16:16:40Z")
What caused these explosions? > [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZsyFO4WQAAM_Vb?format=jpg&name=medium) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZsyFO4WQAAM_Vb?format=jpg&name=medium) Also, multiple explosions reported near a military airfield in Crimea. > [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZuLYpNX0AI9xR0?format=jpg&name=900x900) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZuLYpNX0AI9xR0?format=jpg&name=900x900) ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7048 "2022-08-09T16:24:44Z")
I didn’t know that; thanks. I did know that the engine can be used to burn human waste where sewage services are lacking. It’s an awesome tank, but only if fuel is plentiful. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7049 "2022-08-09T16:46:09Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > What caused these explosions? Lots of options: 1. US has not been entirely forthcoming about the types of recently supplied MLRS rockets for use with HIMARS & M270 platforms. ATACMS munitions have 300km range. (Not terribly likely, but possible) 2. Recently supplied AGM-88 HARM missiles have degraded Russian anti-air capabilities in the region enough to risk an airstrike. (Probably not, there’s video of the explosion but no reports of aircraft) 3. Ukrainian spec ops teams 4. Ukrainian partisans 5. Russian incompetence 6. Intentional Russian self-sabotage The thing about ammo dumps is that you don’t need to bring a lot of explosives to blow them up. Just a little spark in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7050 "2022-08-09T16:58:10Z")
Have there been any indications or anecdotes of Russians physically sabotaging their own war effort? There have been protestors, even on Russian TV. But I don’t think I’ve seen any hints that individual Russians are purposefully destroying or damaging anything. Except for their own bodies through self-inflicted wounds. I wouldn’t count that last one, though since one can still be in favor of the war even if you don’t want to fight in it. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7051 "2022-08-09T17:03:11Z")
I was just trying to be complete. I’d think options 3 and 4 are the most likely, followed by 5, followed by 1. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7052 "2022-08-09T17:05:32Z")
I wasn’t really replying to you although it was prompted by your post. It was an open question that I’ve been pondering for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7053 "2022-08-09T17:15:59Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Have there been any indications or anecdotes of Russians physically sabotaging their own war effort? We heard about this kind of thing especially early in the conflict around the same time when there were reports of captured Russians who appeared not to understand they were even invading Ukraine, and not on some training exercise. [Intercepted Calls Catch Russian Troops Sabotaging Vladimir Putin’s War Plans by Breaking Tanks (thedailybeast.com)](https://www.thedailybeast.com/intercepted-calls-catch-russian-troops-sabotaging-vladimir-putins-war-plans-by-breaking-tanks) [Russian soldiers sabotaging own efforts in Ukraine, UK spy chief says (cnbc.com)](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/31/russian-soldiers-sabotaging-own-efforts-in-ukraine-uk-spy-chief-says.html) [Ukraine Releases List of Russian Officers Who May Be Sabotaging Putin’s War (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-releases-list-russian-officers-allegedly-selling-military-equipment-1715755) Some of the sources I’ve linked seem dubious. The ‘intercepted phone calls’ strikes me as being the product of the Ukrainian propaganda machine. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7054 "2022-08-09T17:36:03Z")
_This is a reply to a discussion about Russia obtaining electronic components needed to build missiles including microchips from foreign suppliers by indirect routes._ > [@Kedikat](#): > > By circuitous routes, if under sanctions. > Sanctions are far from airtight. You will pay extra to middlemen and other extra costs. But you can get it. > Ford is under a greater cost benefit crunch. A government military budget is as we often see, and pay for in taxes, not so much. We’re talking about electronic manufacturers in first-world countries observing the sanctions, correct? I don’t know anything about the microchip business, but I do know a fair amount about corporate compliance. If the chips are off-the-shelf, like an electronics repairman could buy, then it would be pretty easy. The middleman selling to Russia would just buy the chips from the nearest wholesaler, or possibly over the internet with no checks involved. However, if the chips are designed to be used in weapons, they’re probably regulated items. There’s a whole passel of international law, treaties, and trade agreements that specifies items that must be regulated and how compliance with those regulations must be performed and reported. And severe penalties for companies that don’t fulfil that compliance. Your middleman would have to establish a company in an allowed market, have several company officers registered as company officers who would have to be contactable, have submitted company articles and financial reports, have a bank account approved for international business payments (which has its own set of hurdles), and have sufficient information publicly available to prove they’re a real company. For weapons systems, I’m guessing they’ll have to have government approval and contracts with either the government or an approved goverrment defence supplier. The overall concept is called Know Your Customer and onboarding a new customer for a regulated business is a lot of work. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done, especially by Russia’s military intelligence agency (GRU). But even if the shell company has already been established, it’s still going to take weeks, if not months, before they can even put in a microchips order. And then that order has to go into a production queue, which has already been noted may already be above capacity. If Russia has an urgent need for weapon electronic components from a manufacturer in a country observing the sanctions, that need won’t be met with urgency. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7055 "2022-08-09T18:57:55Z")
The Ukrainian Ministry of Defense suggests it is #5 on your list and reminds people ["The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine cannot determine the cause of the fire, but once again reminds of the rules of fire safety and the prohibition of smoking in unspecified places,” the ministry statement said.](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-09-22#h_1d75d39e27b077b803fbdba5924d392d) 😁 Also, the Pentagon is [estimating Russian casualties in the 70,000-80,000 range](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-09-22#h_ef5a215d90aabbb5ff3c36449a99c513). One thing this war has driven home with me is the amazing willingness of the Russian people to put up with lots of dead/wounded. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7056 "2022-08-09T19:16:39Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Stocks of T-72s and parts are shortly going to become very scarce if they aren’t already. In terms of maintaining a reliable future supply of weapons, ammo, and replacement parts, Ukraine is going to need to transition to NATO standard weapons, so if this is going to be a long conflic While I think your argument has some merit (witness the other old Warsaw Pact nations transitioning to Western gear), I will note that re: the T-72 question, Ukraine does have a native tank industry. During the U.S.S.R. days Kharkiv was the center of the T-64 and T-80 tank production lines. That factory is still active, though due to financial issues mostly refurbishing old T-64s. They did successfully build and export several hundred [T-80UD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#Ukrainian_T-80UD) when relations with Russia were better and spare parts exchanges possible. And they came up with an improved native iteration, the [T-84 Oplot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-84), which again was exported in very small numbers but financial problems prevented its large-scale deployment and only a few are in service. They were still being manufactured in small numbers though and without significant Russian aid - 49 were supplied to Thailand between 2013 and 2018. So they actually do have some spare parts and ammo manufacturing capability for Soviet-era armor. Money and material is a bigger issue. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7057 "2022-08-09T19:27:26Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > One thing this war has driven home with me is the amazing willingness of the Russian people to put up with lots of dead/wounded. I mean, the Soviets suffered 50x the deaths of America in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7058 "2022-08-09T20:01:45Z")
I’ve posted [The Fallen of World War II](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwKPFT-RioU&t=290s) before. It’s a 19 minute video so I’ve started it a few minutes in at the point where it starts talking about the Nazi campaign to the east, specifically Stalingrad. Each figure in the bar graph is 1,000 deaths. After the German bar stops rising the Soviet one just keeps going and going until it towers above. Being produced in 2016 it ends optimistically about the Long Peace. Russia has shattered that optimism. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7059 "2022-08-09T20:29:27Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > Also, the Pentagon is [estimating Russian casualties in the 70,000-80,000 range](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-09-22#h_ef5a215d90aabbb5ff3c36449a99c513). One thing this war has driven home with me is the amazing willingness of the Russian people to put up with lots of dead/wounded. I’m sure that they’re not trusting the numbers being offered by the West. And from the viewpoint of the Russian government - every soldier who returns home is a soldier that wants a paycheck. They might not be in a position to afford that. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7060 "2022-08-09T22:15:05Z")
Here’s footage (supposedly) of the ammo dump going up at Saki Airbase in Crimea: > **[SHOT](https://t.me/shot_shot/42503)** > > Момент сразу двух мощных взрывов возле Новофедоровки. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7061 "2022-08-09T23:27:59Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > Also, the Pentagon is [estimating Russian casualties in the 70,000-80,000 range](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-09-22#h_ef5a215d90aabbb5ff3c36449a99c513). One thing this war has driven home with me is the amazing willingness of the Russian people to put up with lots of dead/wounded. I would strongly question whether the Russian public is being informed about the casualty rate. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7062 "2022-08-09T23:34:25Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > I would strongly question whether the Russian public is being informed about the casualty rate. Apparently, there used to be [a group in Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia) that would collate information from soldiers mothers, as they were informed of their sons’ deaths, to get a proper count of the losses. They largely operated during the Soviet era but, after the 2014 Ukraine invasion, they started reporting again and the current government started to work on getting it shut down as a “USA organized and funded group” and seems to have largely succeeded. I have no opinion on the organization or its funding. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7063 "2022-08-10T01:44:06Z")
Pretty much agree. It was a long time ago, and things can be tracked way better now. But the U.S. used shell companies to buy Titanium from the USSR. I think it was particularly for the SR 71. An iconic aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7064 "2022-08-10T01:58:55Z")
We really are in the weirdest timeline: > **[Steven Seagal appears in Ukraine, serving as a Russian spokesperson](https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2022/08/09/steven-seagal-appears-in-ukraine-serving-as-a-russian-spokesperson/)** > > Steven Seagal visits Ukraine amid prison bombing controversy. I don’t know what to say. Seagal was always a complete piece of shit. And yet somehow each time he appears in the news, it’s worse than the last. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=349) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=351)