# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 364
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7325 "2022-08-22T23:44:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Huh, I thought artillery used brass shells. I read the earlier quote on manufacture wrong. Naval guns below about 10-inches have brass powder casings. Under 5-inches, more or less, they are a fixed piece like a gigantic small arms cartridge. 5 inches and up the shell and case are loaded separately. Ten inches and up are the “bag guns” where the powder is in silk bags that are consumed when the gun is fired. Below is a photo of USS _Brooklyn_ CL-40 with six-inch casings accumulated on the main deck during the invasion of Sicily. At the end of the action they’d be tossed overboard with no attempt to recycle. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Guns_and_shell_casings_on_board_USS_Brooklyn_%28CL-40%29_during_Sicily_invasion%2C_July_1943.jpg/614px-Guns_and_shell_casings_on_board_USS_Brooklyn_%28CL-40%29_during_Sicily_invasion%2C_July_1943.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Guns_and_shell_casings_on_board_USS_Brooklyn_%28CL-40%29_during_Sicily_invasion%2C_July_1943.jpg/614px-Guns_and_shell_casings_on_board_USS_Brooklyn_%28CL-40%29_during_Sicily_invasion%2C_July_1943.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7326 "2022-08-22T23:54:59Z")
Thank yku for enlightening me @DesertDog ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7327 "2022-08-23T01:08:31Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yeah, which also means that the likelihood the U.S. gave a weapon system that wasn’t scheduled to be available until next year to Ukraine ahead of our own army is mighty low. Is there a better way to test it? ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7328 "2022-08-23T01:14:53Z")
Also for providing a cool picture. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7329 "2022-08-23T01:18:51Z")
All the naval guns above caliber 5"/54 have long been retired\*. None of the current 5"/54 rounds have a brass cartridge case. The 6" rounds were the only ones in the large caliber category that used a cartridge case. 8", 14" and 16" guns used bag charges. Cartridge cases of that size would be too unwieldy. The navies have always just pitched overboard. \*There is at least one 8’/55 gun around for test purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7330 "2022-08-23T02:21:35Z")
Russia clearly manufacturing evidence to blame the assassination on a woman that’s currently (supposedly) in Estonia, a NATO country. Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7331 "2022-08-23T02:27:00Z")
And if Russia is blaming it on Ukraine, what that means is that Ukraine has the capacity to launch assassinations in Moscow, the heart of the Russian security state. If only there were a way to say a loose cigarette caused the explosion… ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7332 "2022-08-23T02:33:29Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > 8", 14" and 16" guns used bag charges. [Oh, really?](https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=232934) The [_Des Moines_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Des_Moines-class_cruiser) class heavy cruisers’ 8-inch guns were auto-loading, something that would be tricky to accomplish with a bag gun. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7333 "2022-08-23T05:11:31Z")
Yup. And the Germans used brass cartridges on all their naval guns right up to 16”. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7334 "2022-08-23T12:15:54Z")
I think this article is dead wrong … if anything, the war showed the russian incompetence so far and that NATO - with just sending in 16 trucks can pretty much run havoc on russian warfare … It was quite normal to hear - 6 months ago- that russia could basically overrun half of europe if they wanted … now it turns out that they cant even overrun (insert avg. nebraska county here) so my takehome is that NATO (with just sending 0.1% of their assets) beat russians asses all day long … and that an army of 10.000 committed fighters is more worth than one of 100.000 non-committed non-fighters 😉 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7335 "2022-08-23T14:34:02Z")
Its easy to forget the Soviet Union had a lot more resources compared to todays Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7336 "2022-08-23T15:04:14Z")
I’m pretty sure Russia did. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7337 "2022-08-23T17:53:29Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > The [_Des Moines_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Des_Moines-class_cruiser) class heavy cruisers’ 8-inch guns were auto-loading, The gun in question was a semi-fixed round, with separate ammunition and a brass propellant cartidge: > **[8-inch/55-caliber gun | Mark 16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-inch/55-caliber_gun#Mark_16)** > > These self-loading guns with lined monobloc construction and vertical sliding breech blocks weighed about 20 tons. Semi-fixed ammunition (projectile and powder case handled separately) with 78 pounds (35 kg) of smokeless powder gave a 335-pound (152 kg) projectile a velocity of 2500 feet per second (760 m/s). Each gun could fire about ten rounds per minute. Useful life expectancy was 780 EFC per liner. Range was 17 miles (27 kilometers) at the maximum elevation of 41 degrees. Thi > [@](#): > > These self-loading guns with lined monobloc construction and vertical sliding breech blocks weighed about 20 tons. Semi-fixed ammunition (projectile and **powder case handled separately** ) So, still ejecting brass after the shot, but less unwieldy than a fully-fixed round. Also gave some versatility, since there were two different propellant cartridges: Mark I full charge and Mark 2 reduced charge. [http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS\_8-55\_mk16.php#Ammunition](http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_8-55_mk16.php#Ammunition) > [@](#): > > Mark 1 cartridge case was for full charges while the Mark 2 was a short case for reduced charges. > > Full Charge - 77 lbs (34.9 kg) SPD or SPDN > Full Flashless Charge - 82 lbs. (37.2 kg) SPCG > > Reduced Charge - 45 lbs. (20.4 kg) SPDN > Reduced Flashless Charge - 46 lbs. (20.9 kg) SPDF ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7338 "2022-08-23T20:43:23Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Russia’s Interfax news agency quotes the FSB as saying that they have “solved” the killing of Darya Dugina, saying it was Ukraine special forces, who then fled to Estonia. > > [ФСБ раскрыла убийство дочери Дугина](https://www.interfax.ru/russia/857703) That seems a suspiciously fast “solve” to me, almost like the story had been set up in advance for the FSB could have a small dossier on the “suspect” immediately… > [@aceplace57](#): > > Russia seems determined to drag NATO into the conflict and start a war. Russia has already started a war. They do seem to want to drag other parties into it. Why, I cannot fathom, but then, I’m not a power-made dictator. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Understatement of the year from this Newsweek article: > > > The Russian Investigative Committee said Sunday it believed the blast that killed Dugina near the village of Velyki Vyazomy in the suburbs of Moscow was no accident. Yeah, well, car bombs are very, very seldom an _accident_… ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7339 "2022-08-23T21:02:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That seems a suspiciously fast “solve” to me, almost like the story had been set up in advance for the FSB could have a small dossier on the “suspect” immediately… Yeah, as plenty of Russian dissidents living abroad have pointed out, how come they can’t seem to solve any other political assassinations this quickly? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7340 "2022-08-23T21:54:04Z")
US govt announced a $3 billion aid package to Ukraine, larger than any other previous such military shipment. Waiting like Christmas to see what’s in it… ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2022, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7341 "2022-08-23T23:16:04Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > The gun in question was a semi-fixed round, with separate ammunition and a brass propellant cartidge Yes, but it was not a bag gun as was stated. Even 5 inch rounds are separate shell and charge. I had thought they were fixed but not that I’ve found. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7342 "2022-08-24T02:41:58Z")
Morbid question: If Trump had been president in Feb-2022 and ordered the U.S. military to help Russia conquer Ukraine to do buddy Putin a favor, what percentage of the military would mutiny against such “bomb Kyiv” orders? 80%? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7343 "2022-08-24T02:51:24Z")
Trump wouldn’t have helped, but he might have (probably?) stayed out of it and without US leadership you probably don’t get the response we’ve seen. No expansion of NATO; Poland, the UK, and the Baltics the only countries chipping in; minimal intelligence sharing. Putin maybe stops avoiding attacking arms shipments while on Polish territory, Poland invokes article 5, the US doesn’t answer and NATO dissolves. That’s a realistic worse case for Trump being president. Joining Russia wouldn’t happen. Might as well wonder what happens if Trump sprouted wings and flew to gumdrop island. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7344 "2022-08-24T12:44:19Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Trump wouldn’t have helped… Yup. I think Putin had this all planned out. Trump was going to win, so don’t have to worry about the US helping Ukraine. But, the ball was already rolling when Trump lost. I mean, Trump had already tried to extort Zelenski. Zelenski wouldn’t have it, so Trump is very unhappy with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=363) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=365)