# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 367
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7385 "2022-08-26T07:55:08Z")
It is the Ukrainians that are shelling the plant. The Russians have been in control of the area for some time now. They have no reason to shell it. Sometimes the Ukrainians said they were shelling it, because Russians had military installations there. Other times they say the Russians are shelling it. It makes no sense for either side to shell it. But even less sense for the Russians to do it. They are in full possession of it. The only Russian military in it are a sensible number of guard personnel. Ukrainian plant workers are still on site to keep it running. So let the flaming begin… ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7386 "2022-08-26T08:05:49Z")
I have wondered why the Russians would shell their own positions. I’ve seen photos of Russian trucks parked inside the plant. It is possible out going shelling from the plant could hit important infrastructure. There are plans to disconnect the plant and shut off electricity to Ukraine. That is potentially dangerous. > **[Russian vehicles seen inside turbine hall at Ukraine nuclear plant | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/19/europe/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-russian-vehicles-intl-hnk/index.html)** > > New video has emerged online showing Russian military vehicles inside a turbine hall connected to a nuclear reactor at Ukraine's Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, where intensified shelling has fueled fears of a nuclear disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7387 "2022-08-26T08:15:18Z")
I don’t think the white trucks would be military. Maybe for use by the plant. The other two could be, but two trucks is not a big deal. I heard there are actually a few armored personnel carriers at the plant. That would be likely. Military personnel will be guarding the place. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7388 "2022-08-26T11:50:33Z")
It makes sense for Russia to shell it (and blame Ukraine) if they want to use a meltdown as rationale to escalate (such as using tactical nukes) or a similar type of deception. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7389 "2022-08-26T12:55:18Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Kedikat](#): > > So let the flaming begin… I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are only posting this part because you expect to be flamed for your generally pro-Russian point of view. Otherwise, intentionally posting things just to stir up flames is an excellent way to have your posting privileges reviewed by the staff. > [@Kedikat](#): > > It is the Ukrainians that are shelling the plant Do you have a cite for this? I have no problem with questioning the factual accuracy of news reports coming out of Russia and the Ukraine. Truth is always the first casualty of war, as the saying goes. But if you are going to post something completely contrary to what is being reported in the media, you should be able to cite it. We are allowing a fair amount of commentary and speculation in this thread, but let’s all keep in mind that this is a breaking news thread. I think everyone is aware of what the breaking news restrictions are at this point. If you are questioning who is doing the shelling, that’s fine, but say that it is speculation on your part. Keep politics out of the discussion, and if it turns into a debate or gets to be too much of a hijack, then take the discussion elsewhere so that this thread can remain focused on the breaking news from the region. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7390 "2022-08-26T13:08:22Z")
ISW analysis is interesting. I didn’t know there are two power plants in Zaporizhzhia. I added bolding for emphasis about militarization around the plant. It’s going to be nearly impossible for Ukraine to _safely take it back_ with ground forces. Cite [Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, August 25 | Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-august-25) > [@](#): > > **The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) disconnected from the power grid for the first time in its operational history on August 25.** Ukrainian nuclear operating enterprise Energoatom reported that Russian shelling caused the disconnection by starting fires at ash pits near the Zaporizhia Thermal Power Plant (ZTPP), approximately 5km from the ZNPP.[4] Energoatom stated that the ZTPP is currently supplying the ZNPP with power and that work is ongoing to reconnect one of the ZNPP power units back to the Ukrainian power grid.[5] > > Russian sources accused Ukrainian forces of firing at the ZNPP, but Russia has not provided clear evidence of Ukrainian troops striking the plant.[6] As ISW has previously reported, Ukraine’s Main Intelligence Directorate (GUR) stated that Russian troops deliberately conducted mortar strikes against the ash pits at the ZTPP.[7] The GUR also has not provided clear evidence to support its claims. The Russians’ failure to provide unequivocal evidence of the extensive shelling they accuse Ukraine of conducting is more noteworthy, however, because Russia controls the ground and could provide more conclusive evidence far more easily than Ukraine could. The GUR also reported on August 20 that Russian officials had indefinitely extended the order for Ukrainian employees of the ZNPP to stay home, and there have been no reports of any rescission of that order, which means that a portion of the ZNPP’s workforce is apparently still absent on Russian orders despite the ongoing emergency.[8] **Russian forces have also heavily militarized the ZNPP since its capture, despite the fact that the facility is far from the front line and at no risk of imminent Ukrainian ground attack. This pattern of activity continues to make it far more likely that Russian forces have been responsible for kinetic attacks on and around the ZNPP than that Ukrainian forces have been.** ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7391 "2022-08-26T13:34:30Z")
Ukrainians make the (very plausible) claim that Russians are placing artillery around the nuclear power plant effectively using it as a ‘shield’ to shell Nikopol across the Dnieper River with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7392 "2022-08-26T14:04:00Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > The only Russian military in it are a sensible number of guard personnel. > [@](#): > > On nights when he hears them, Mykhailo Kling runs to his panoramic ninth-floor balcony in Nikopol to watch Russian rockets being fired at his hometown. > > “See the reactor buildings there,” he said, pointing across the wide expanse of the Dnipro River at the eerie shapes of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant reactors jutting out from the opposite bank. > > “Sometimes Russians launch (shells) from behind them, from Enerhodar, and sometimes they come out from the side (of the reactor to fire) and hide away again straight after.” > **[Life on the front line of Russia’s new nuclear brinkmanship](https://kyivindependent.com/life-on-the-front-line-of-russias-new-nuclear-brinkmanship/)** > > NIKOPOL – On nights when he hears them, Mykhailo Kling runs to his panoramic ninth-floor balcony in Nikopol to watch Russian rockets being fired at his hometown. > > “See the reactor buildings there,” he said, pointing across the wide expanse of the... It would make no sense for the Ukrainians to shell the area of the power plant in order to target a “sensible number of guard personnel”. There are no Ukrainian forces near the plant - they would need to cross the 5 km-wide Kakhovka Reservoir/Dnipro River to get there - so the number of guard personnel required would be small. So small, in fact, that it would likely be impractical/impossible for the Ukrainians to target them with artillery. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7393 "2022-08-26T14:28:15Z")
> **[Ukraine's volunteer 'IT army' responds to Russian hackers, minister says](https://abcnews.go.com/International/ukraines-volunteer-army-responds-russian-hackers-minister/story?id=88651955)** > > Ukraine established an “IT army” -- a gathering of more than 230,000 anonymous volunteers who are working together via Telegram, an online messaging platform. Summay: IT people in the Ukraine are fending off Russian cyberspace attacks, and launching their own. Quote from the article: “When asked if he (Ukraine IT person) worried about the impact of his efforts on everyday Russians…:”🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7394 "2022-08-26T14:39:16Z")
> [@Bonum\_Legatum](#): > > “When asked if he (Ukraine IT person) worried about the impact of his efforts on everyday Russians…:” “Worry about it? We’re COUNTING on it!” I mean, really, that’s what _all_ sanctions and propaganda rely on: Making the common people of the targeted state realize that the war isn’t just about Dear Leader having adventures in someone else’s country. Making them decide to stop supporting Deal Leader, so that the state government collapses. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7395 "2022-08-26T17:39:36Z")
The President of Belarus has announced that his planes have been modified to carry nuclear weapons. > **[Belarus leader says his warplanes have been modified to carry nuclear weapons](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/belarus-leader-says-his-warplanes-have-been-modified-carry-nuclear-weapons-2022-08-26/)** > > Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko said on Friday that his military's SU-24 warplanes had been modified to carry nuclear weaponsand that Minsk would react immediately if the West caused it any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7396 "2022-08-26T19:31:45Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The President of Belarus has announced that his planes have been modified to carry nuclear weapons. Yeah, but Belarus doesn’t _have_ any nuclear weapons. In fact, they’re a signatory state to the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7397 "2022-08-27T01:44:01Z")
They would be for Russian nuclear weapons. From the article: > [@](#): > > Lukashenko said he had agreed the move to modernise Belarusian warplanes with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the Belta news agency reported. > > … > > “They (the West) must understand that if they opt for escalation no helicopters or planes will save them,” Lukashenko was quoted as saying. > > “Everything was ready,” he said, referring to the work to modify Belarusian warplanes to carry nuclear weapons. > > “It’s not a good idea to escalate things with Belarus because that would be an escalation with the Union State (of Russia and Belarus) which has nuclear weapons. If they start to create problems … the response will be immediate.” The Union State of which Lukashenko speaks, officially the Union State of Russia and Belarus, is, according to Wikipedia, “a supranational organisation consisting of Russia and Belarus, with the stated aim of deepening the relationship between the two states through integration in economic and defense policy”. Lukashenko was one of its original creators back in 1997. (He’s been president of Belarus since 1994). The intention, Wikipedia goes on to say, “was to achieve a federation like the Soviet Union, with a common head of state, legislature, flag, coat of arms, anthem, constitution, army, citizenship and currency.” Furthermore, “although it consists of only Russia and Belarus, other countries are allowed to join”, although nobody else has thus far taken up the invitation. > **[Union State](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State)** > > The Union State,\[b\] or Union State of Russia and Belarus,\[c\] is a supranational union consisting of Belarus and Russia, with the stated aim of deepening the relationship between the two states through integration in economic and defence policy. Originally, the Union State aimed to create a confederation; however, both countries currently retain their independence. The Union State is based on a previous international treaty between Russia and Belarus made on 2 April 1997. Although The Community... ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7398 "2022-08-27T04:33:26Z")
Joining the Union State with Russia is an effective way to avoid being invaded. Makes me wonder if Belarus gets other perks like cheap natural gas and weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7399 "2022-08-27T05:32:52Z")
Lots of reports that 800 of these bomber drones were donated to Ukraine from Taiwan. [https://dronesvision.com/mortar-revolver-bomber-drone/](https://dronesvision.com/mortar-revolver-bomber-drone/) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7400 "2022-08-27T06:30:18Z")
> [@Bonum\_Legatum](#): > > Summay: IT people in the Ukraine are fending off Russian cyberspace attacks, and launching their own. I hope that includes white hats from the US. It’s essential our guys get experience in this cyber war. Learn Russian capabilities and vulnerability. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7401 "2022-08-27T09:16:29Z")
The war will probably heat up as both sides try to gain ground before winter. **UK Ministey of Defense** > > > ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7402 "2022-08-27T17:34:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I hope that includes white hats from the US. It’s essential our guys get experience in this cyber war. Learn Russian capabilities and vulnerability. Believe it or not, this has occurred to our intelligence people and we have had people working on it for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7403 "2022-08-27T18:26:32Z")
I think it would be funny if the Russian hacker division turns out to be as obsolete and hapless as the regular military (“it’s coming through now, it’s a Word file, with … the Concept virus?”). But I also think that Putin’s well-known lack of interest and knowledge in the details of technology as he hews to more traditional expressions of power means the hacker team has largely been left to their own devices, and has been able to develop their capabilities without the headwind of political supervision and meddling. And therefore they’ve probably got some meaningful skillz as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7404 "2022-08-27T18:33:58Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > > [@aceplace57](#): > > > > Don’t the Russians at the power plant understand they’ll get radiation contamination first? > > Seeing as the Russians (formerly) around Chernobyl dug foxholes in the contaminated soil, I’m going to say the answer is “no”. ^ This. > [@Kedikat](#): > > It is the Ukrainians that are shelling the plant. Please provide actual proof of this statement. I’m OK with you being a Putin apologist but not with you making unsubstantiated claims. > [@Kedikat](#): > > They have no reason to shell it. No one has any reason to shell a nuclear plant, and yet it’s happening. Seems to me it’s more likely to be the side that needlessly started a war by invading a neighboring country doing something so effing stupid than the people defending their homes. Would you like to explain why the Russians were stupid enough to dig up the Red Forest around Chernobyl? Shelling Zaporizhzhia is no more or less stupid than that. > [@Kedikat](#): > > Ukrainian plant workers are still on site to keep it running. Yes. Because they have literal guns pointed at their heads and aren’t allowed to leave. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It makes sense for Russia to shell it (and blame Ukraine) if they want to use a meltdown as rationale to escalate (such as using tactical nukes) or a similar type of deception. ^ This. Cause a major disaster, blame the Ukrainians. Do it on the correct day with the right wind direction and you get to contaminate the evil Western European NATO countries as a bonus. And an excuse to escalate. False flags have long been a Russian specialty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=366) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=368)