# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 381
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7665 "2022-09-10T02:05:57Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Even the Ukraine official military reports will count Ukraine air sorties of 20 to 40 a day, versus Russian air sorties of 200 a day. How many of them are actually over hostile territory in Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7666 "2022-09-10T02:25:24Z")
Now that you mention that, I do not know specifically what defines a sortie. Or if each side defines them in the same way. But I don’t think a flight over ones own held territory would be included in such a report. I think a reported sortie, would be one of an aircraft penetrating enemy territory for some form of attack. Probably even excluding such things as a flight delivering parachuting troops, which would be included in an enemy ground offensive, even if initiated by air. Maybe a detected aircraft doing surveillance with no attack, would also be considered a sortie. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7667 "2022-09-10T02:25:49Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > The support is also having to cross over bridges. It is suspicious that the Russians have not yet destroyed the bridges. Which bridges specifically are you talking about? The offensive towards Kupiansk hasn’t crossed any bridges of note. In fact it seems more likely that the Ukrainians would be trying to destroy bridges over the Oskil to prevent Russian retreats and further cut off Izium. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7668 "2022-09-10T02:33:29Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Given Russian air superiority… You must be getting this from Russian sources. Every commentator I’ve heard or read talking about air superiority says how surprised they are that Russia have never been able to achieve it over Ukraine. Take this article, for example: > [@](#): > > Ukraine’s success in contesting the skies turns the West’s airpower paradigm on its head — it offers an alternative vision for pursuing airspace denial over air superiority. Despite having one of the largest and most technologically sophisticated air forces in the world, Russia has failed to establish air superiority over Ukraine. And many Western analysts are surprised and bewildered. > > … > > But the air war in Ukraine, where neither side controls the skies, suggests that denying air superiority is sometimes a smarter operational objective than trying to gain it outright. > > … > > Ukraine has used mobility and dispersion to maintain its air defenses as a “force in being.” Operating a mix of Cold-War era, Soviet-made mobile surface-to-air missile systems Ukrainian defenders on the ground have kept Russian aircraft at bay and under threat. To do so they have used the long range S-300 family, medium range SA-11s, and short range SA-8 Gecko systems. > > … > > On the rare occasions that Russian jets and bombers fly into Ukrainian airspace, they generally fly low to the ground to evade radar detection. But solving one problem creates another — these tactics put Russian aircraft in the range of Ukraine’s anti-aircraft artillery and thousands of shoulder-fired man-portable air defense systems, including American-supplied Stingers. > > … > > Ukraine describes its air defense strategy in exactly these terms — luring Russian planes into Ukrainian air defense traps. > **[In Denial About Denial: Why Ukraine’s Air Success Should Worry the West - War...](https://warontherocks.com/2022/06/in-denial-about-denial-why-ukraines-air-success-should-worry-the-west/)** > > Ukraine’s success in contesting the skies turns the West’s airpower paradigm on its head — it offers an alternative vision for pursuing airspace denial ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7669 "2022-09-10T02:38:04Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Now that you mention that, I do not know specifically what defines a sortie. Well, a sortie in military aviation is pretty much an aircraft taking off from an airfield on a combat mission. You launch six aircraft and they return to base without attacking anything, that’s still six sorties. Most Russian air attacks since April seem to have launched their munitions as close as possible to Russian airspace. If they had anything approaching air superiority, they would be launching their missiles much more closely, where they can achieve greater accuracy. Most of this war, they’ve been hitting a shitload of non-military targets. Any penetration they have achieved has come from flying close to the ground to avoid the quite effective late Soviet/Early RF anti-air systems the Ukrainians seem to still have, which exposes them to the aforementioned MANPADS. So, their lack of air superiority is obvious. Neither side has superiority, so that might be some comfort to the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7670 "2022-09-10T02:56:40Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > I know you’re (half) joking, but reportedly Ukrainian forces have encountered very little resistance. It’s like the Russians just left the area virtually undefended. Whoa! Quiet Quitting is also happening in Russia’s armed forces. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7671 "2022-09-10T03:20:11Z")
unconfirmed - but I am reading more and more info on the Rus. front completely collapsing and Ukr. forces already fighting **WITHIN** Izyum… with lots of Rus. surrendering. (info from an ex-deputy-mayor of Izyum on FB … to be taken with a grain of salt) I guess tomorrow we will learn more… ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7672 "2022-09-10T03:28:08Z")
I wonder if WarGonzo got his tire fixed. > > > Samir @obretix ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7673 "2022-09-10T04:04:03Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Yeah. It sounded like FOX news, only with the Russian versions of Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, etc. Carlson should just head over to Russia at this point. He gets his talking points directly from them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7674 "2022-09-10T04:06:50Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I am concerned I’m sure you are. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7675 "2022-09-10T05:12:01Z")
Here is what the Ukrainian government is saying. > **[Zelenskyy announces breakthrough in Ukraine’s east and south](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/9/zelenskyy-announces-breakthrough-in-ukraines-east-and-south)** > > Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says troops have reclaimed more than 1,000sq km of territory. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7676 "2022-09-10T05:15:05Z")
> > ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7677 "2022-09-10T06:40:55Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Is that ordnance compatible with Ukrainian weapons? If I’m not mistaken, both Russian and Ukrainian forces make heavy use of 152mm artillery shells. I would assume that any Russian 152mm shells that fall into Ukrainian hands can be fired from 152mm Ukrainian howitzers. Same may also apply for 122mm, a Russian/Ukrainian caliber that is unseen in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7678 "2022-09-10T08:32:06Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Europe may be able to find alternative sources. Unfortunately they will all likely be more expensive than piped energy. I’d rather pay more for energy than have an army of orcs coming over the hill to kill, rape, and pillage, who ban all languages but their own, making me a stranger in my own land. Those actually next to Russia feel this even more strongly. What good is cheap energy if I lose my freedom and/or my life? What good is cheap energy to someone tortured and maimed, or gang-raped? Russia is trying to hold Europe hostage with energy and other nations hostage with food, as if there really were no other alternatives in the world. Of course alternatives will be found and used. As the true nature of the current Russian regime becomes more and more apparent more and more people will be willing to oppose it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7679 "2022-09-10T08:40:40Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Europe may be able to find alternative sources. Unfortunately they will all likely be more expensive than piped energy. _And that is called paying the Dane-geld;_ _But we’ve proved it again and again,_ _That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld_ _You never get rid of the Dane._ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7680 "2022-09-10T08:42:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Those electric heaters would represent an additional load to an electric grid that is already overstressed. There are ways to manage that. See what happened recently in [California](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-09-07/a-text-asked-millions-of-californians-to-save-energy-they-listened-averting-blackouts) where alerts to customers resulted in sufficient drop in demand to avoid major blackouts despite there being an unprecedented heat wave and demand for power to run air conditioners (sort of the flip of winter cold, but really the same problem in regards to energy). > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Or, that the war ends quickly and gas deliveries resume. I do not think this war will end “quickly”. I’d love to be wrong on that, but I doubt I am. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > European leaders are already screwing up by putting a cap on profits of power producers. That might as well be a restriction on energy production. Meddlers never seem to learn the fundamental rules of economics. Pure capitalism means people would freeze to death in winter, or starve to death. Society at large, at least our type of society, frowns upon that which is why no nation in the world has pure capitalism or markets with unlimited freedom. Ukraine and Russia may be in a hot war, but the EU and NATO are in a cold war. A war footing means sacrifice is required and as usual the greedy profiteers are squealing loudest. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I just read that it’s possible Ukraine has already re- entered Izyum. If so, Putin might be at the negotiating table quicker than we thought, Let’s hope so. Putin will never negotiate. I don’t think this ends without Putin ending first. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I assume the mechanism for ‘capping profits’ will be to force them to keep prices lower? If so, that will stimulate demand. Or are the governments just going to take their profits away from them? If so, that will reduce incentive to find every btu of production they can. If not, one way they can cap profits is to simply stop producing more energy after they hit their profit cap. Is there another way of doing this that I’m missing? Did you miss the whole point about price gouging? There’s a middle ground between “make them run at a loss” and “let them charge exorbitant rates”. And if the government is setting rates/capping profits/whatever you wish to call it they could set prices high enough to prevent increased demand, but prevent gouging above that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7681 "2022-09-10T08:58:55Z")
> [@Wincerind](#): > > There are no fundamental rules in economics, just ideology. It is not a science. No worries, we in Europe have ways to cope. Yes , a cold winter will hurt us economically but not to the point of freezing to death. The whole idea of Europe ceasing to support Ukraine due to gas shortages is Russian propaganda, in my view, i do not see that happening. > I am astounded at the clueless judgement of the European situation and attitudes across the pond. A lot of it has to do with a certain segment of America projecting on Europe. They’re assuming ya’ll will run things like Texas, which had most of their power grid collapse due to incompetence and greed in a place where government is prevented from protecting its citizens. I suspect you’re more like California, which does impose controls on industry to protect the populace and gets traction from a text message saying “the grid is about to collapse, please reduce your energy use ASAP to help us prevent that” that actually works. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m sorry, but what is the significance of these pictures? I have no military experience. The Russians are retreating with only what they can carry, which does not include all the stuff in the pictures. Stuff that the Ukrainians will soon own, and will use against the Russians. Most militaries will blow that stuff up before leaving precisely to avoid being shot in the back with their own weapons, but if the retreat is a rout then it’s left behind intact. That’s a sign of panic, not orderly retreat. > [@Bootb](#): > > There are ONLY 2 ways of restricting demand. > > 1. Raise prices as high as necessary to balance supply & demand. > 2. Rationing. > > In this instance, Europe is very likely to see involuntary rationing through brownouts and blackouts. You forgot 3. Inform people that if they don’t cut back voluntarily either 1 or 2 or both will be in effect. Which, admittedly, doesn’t work well with many Americans and their “I got mine, f\*\*\* you attitude” but we’re talking about Europeans here. There is also 4. do f\*\*\* all until the whole house of cards collapses but I’m going to assume no one wants to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7682 "2022-09-10T09:03:28Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > I am concerned that Ukraine forces are going too deep and narrow in the North East offensive. Smaller forces are doing deep hit and runs far to the east. But armor and artillery support is moving far slower. That is sort of how armies advance - infantry and special ops always move faster than armor and artillery. > [@Kedikat](#): > > It is suspicious that the Russians have not yet destroyed the bridges. Seems that the Ukrainians in this war have largely done that for the Russians. Actually, the Ukrainians would be wise to leave an avenue of retreat for the Russians, which I assume is why they haven’t blown them yet - cornered rats fight much harder than fleeing rats. Given the way the Russians are leaving material behind I suspect they won’t be blowing the bridges, either, because no one is organizing such a sensible move. > [@Kedikat](#): > > The next week may be very difficult for Ukraine forces to maintain their gains. > I cannot see a longer term tactical method to keep these gains. Unless there is some external measure of force that is expected to come into play. The Ukrainians have been wargaming with the US before proceeding with new initiatives, as well as getting intel. They’re getting arms and support from dozens of nations. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7683 "2022-09-10T09:13:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > I just read that it’s possible Ukraine has already re- entered Izyum. If so, Putin might be at the negotiating table quicker than we thought, Let’s hope so. > > Putin will never negotiate. I don’t think this ends without Putin ending first. Putin invaded Ukraine for no reason and has already reduced half of it to rubble. What is there to negotiate? It’s not as if the two sides both have valid grievances and there is some middle ground. It would be like trying to negotiate with Hitler, when his non-negotiable intent was to overrun all of Europe. Which attempt at negotiation, one might recall, became the lamentable legacy of the hapless Neville Chamberlain. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2022, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/7684 "2022-09-10T09:46:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A lot of it has to do with a certain segment of America projecting on Europe. The longer I live here, the more I realize that Americans just simply do not get Europeans. Yeah, every European country and culture is different, but it’s taken me years to understand that there’s this fundamental mindset underpinning everything that creates a collective European similarity separating the continent from American ideas and attitudes, in a way that Americans flatly do not grok. So, as a result, you’re right, when Americans try to comment on European culture and make predictions about policy responses, they end up primarily revealing their own limited perspective and projecting their own biases and assumptions. It is possible that if and when things get really rough, financially and otherwise, there could be public pressure on European leaders to cut and run, and I’ve conceded as much in other discussions. But I suspect the threshold for this will be much higher than American outsiders predict, and that a successful collective effort to resist Russia’s neo-czarist bullshit will end up bolstering European resolve and confirm the strength of a unified Europe, directly contrary to Putin’s attempts to sow discord and tear the Union apart. I mean, everything else he’s done has had the opposite effect as intended, so why not this too? So however much Putin loyalists might wring their hands and express disingenuous concern about energy crises and coming hardship, I believe Europe will properly recognize that for what it is, dismiss it, and buckle down to the task at hand. I really do have faith. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=380) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=382)