# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 400
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8045 "2022-09-15T03:29:11Z")
Yes I did. I also watched glowing news reports of it being done in recent conflicts. ### Civilian casualties and destruction of infrastructure Although Ullman and Wade claim that the need to “[m]inimize [civilian casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties), loss of life, and [collateral damage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage)” is a “political sensitivity [which needs] to be understood up front”, their doctrine of rapid dominance requires the capability to disrupt **“means of communication, transportation, food production, water supply, and other aspects of infrastructure”** ,[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe#cite_note-8) and, in practice, “the appropriate balance of Shock and Awe must cause … the threat and fear of action that may shut down all or part of the adversary’s society or render his ability to fight useless short of complete physical destruction.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8046 "2022-09-15T04:08:56Z")
Dudes, what the USA or allies did in past conflicts is not really germane here. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8047 "2022-09-15T04:39:57Z")
Indeed, as all convened would most likely deem the invasion of Iraq in 2003 as a devastatingly stupid move, at best. ETA: And surprisingly, Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is dumber on several orders of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8048 "2022-09-15T04:42:39Z")
Granted, it is a bit of a hijack. However, there is a sliver of relevance, as far as some striking similarities to US involvement in Mujahideen v USSR in a different century. And we all know how well that turned out. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8049 "2022-09-15T04:51:50Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > That _used_ to be the Soviets’ strategy. Probe the entire line and pile it on where it seems weak. The Ukrainians were Soviets, too. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8050 "2022-09-15T06:26:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Russia is clearly running low on everything from trucks to tanks to artillery shells. [Russian forces likely left](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-14/ukraine-forces-keep-pressure-on-russians-in-kharkiv-vovchansk/101437446) behind dozens of tanks, armoured personnel carriers and other heavy weaponry as they fled Ukraine’s advance in the east of the country, a Ukrainian think tank said Wednesday. The Center for Defense Strategies said **one single Russian unit that was around Izium left behind 39 T-80 tanks and 35 infantry fighting vehicles**. Another unit left behind **47 tanks and 27 armoured vehicles**. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8051 "2022-09-15T06:28:12Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > Back on this planet, the US military does not deliberately attack known civilian targets. > **[My Lai massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre)** > > The My Lai massacre (/ˌmiːˈlaɪ/; Vietnamese: Thảm sát Mỹ Lai \[tʰâːm ʂǎːt mǐˀ lāːj\] ⓘ) was a war crime committed by United States Army personnel on 16 March 1968, involving the mass murder of unarmed civilians in Sơn Tịnh district, South Vietnam, during the Vietnam War. Between 347 and 504 civilians were killed by U.S. soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment and Company B, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims inclu ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8052 "2022-09-15T07:33:44Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Not sure how citing the invasion of Iraq makes Putin look better, though… > **[Whataboutism | Soviet Union and Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Soviet_Union_and_Russia)** > > Although the term whataboutism spread recently, Edward Lucas's 2008 Economist article states that "Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed 'whataboutism'. Any criticism of the Soviet Union (Afghanistan, martial law in Poland, imprisonment of dissidents, censorship) was met with a 'What about...' (apartheid South Africa, jailed trade-unionists, the Contras in Nicaragua, and so forth)." Lucas recommended two methods of properly co... ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8053 "2022-09-15T08:14:55Z")
Multiple media outlets are repeating the same AP [report](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-09-13/ukraine-piles-pressure-on-retreating-russian-troops): > [@](#): > > Russian troops were also pulling out from Melitopol, the second largest city in Ukraine’s southern Zaporizhzhia region, the city’s pre-occupation mayor said. His claim could not immediately be verified. > > [. . .] > > Melitopol Mayor Ivan Fedorov wrote on Telegram that the Russian troops were heading toward Moscow-annexed Crimea. He said columns of military equipment were reported at a checkpoint in Chonhar, a village marking the boundary between the Crimean peninsula and the Ukrainian mainland. If that area is getting hollowed out, it will be interesting. The news in unconfirmed so we can’t get too excited yet. It looks like Ukraine is [claiming](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/13/ukraine-vows-to-drive-out-russian-forces) that about half of the area seized has been “stabilized” while they continue to clean up the rest. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8054 "2022-09-15T09:42:19Z")
These attacks will make it easy for NATO to justify air defense systems for Ukraine. > **[Ukraine war: Houses flooded after missiles hit major dam](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62910245)** > > Ukraine says the attack is revenge after it retook occupied territory from Russia in the east. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8055 "2022-09-15T09:47:39Z")
I can’t see why Russians would leave Mariupol. Ukraine forces are fighting on the opposite side of Kherson. Donetsk protects Mariupol from the North. [![](https://understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/DraftUkraineCOTSeptember14%2C2022.png) ](https://understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/DraftUkraineCOTSeptember14%2C2022.png) ---
**Author:** ![Chelonaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chelonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chelonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8056 "2022-09-15T10:21:02Z")
There are reports they are leaving Melitopol, not Mariopol. Melitopol is between Kherson and Mariupol, right in the middle of the blue blob of “reported Ukrainian Partisan Warfare”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8057 "2022-09-15T10:34:42Z")
And the officers involved in the My Lai massacre were prosecuted. What else you got? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8058 "2022-09-15T10:35:19Z")
Earlier in the war there were certainly a lot of arguments on social media that boiled down to “It was wrong when the US did it, therefore it’s fine that Russia is doing it”. I think they got their tu quoques stuck in their whatabouts and ended up with little baby gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8059 "2022-09-15T11:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > ## What is going on with Ukraine’s counteroffensive? > > Ukraine has been having success in pushing back Russian troops in the country, reclaiming swathes of territory. > > Security and defence analyst Professor Michael Clarke breaks down what’s been going on in the latest stage of the conflict, and what it means for Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s war effort. > **[Ukraine-Russia war latest: Kremlin responds to report Wagner boss was...](https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-latest-updates-putin-rejected-deal-that-met-his-demands-on-ukraine-before-war-12541713)** > > Moscow has warned it is prepared to cut diplomatic ties with Washington if the US confiscates frozen Russian assets. The Kremlin has called the Wall Street Journal's report Wagner Group boss Yevgeny Prigozhin was assassinated by Putin's ally "pulp... It’s a seven-minute video, but well worth it. Clarke points out that the Ukrainian forces used Western arms to allow it to conduct the counter offense like a Western army would. They used long range precision artillery to disrupt the rear areas such as headquarters, logistics, and bridges and pinned the enemy forces in place, making it impossible to move around or get reinforcements, all before the battle began. They didn’t use so many tanks, but Western protected mobility, which is all of the armored vehicles needed to move troops around. While Russians tend to use more tracked vehicles, the Ukrainians used more wheeled ones in this offence, which gives greater speed and agility. The Ukrainians used Western methods, Western training and a good amount of Western equipment, which paid off. He does credit the Ukrainians and the ones who did pull it off. The attack has demonstrated the brittleness of the Russian army, with a lack of training, equipment, morale and leadership. There were officers who ran away, which gives the troops no reason to stick around. It wasn’t only the scratch troops which disintegrated. The 1st Guard Tank Army, one of their elite units, withdrew in a hurry leaving behind most of their tanks. The Russian army has been humiliated. It hasn’t lost like this on an open battlefield since December, 1942. The Ukrainians have the advantage of retaking their own territory, so they don’t need to leave troops to guard the villages they have retaken, where invading armies get thinner and thinner the further they go. He sees another big strategic offensive by the Russians next spring. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8060 "2022-09-15T11:19:28Z")
Moderating: Reminder that this is the breaking news thread in MPSIMS. Comparisons of this war to past US wars, etc. are political and are not appropriate for this thread. Take it to P&E. No warnings issued, but drop the hijack now. And everyone: you don’t need to correct people who are wrong on the internet. If there’s a political post you disagree with, better to report it than to engage with it. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8061 "2022-09-15T12:21:32Z")
.nvm… ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8062 "2022-09-15T12:28:30Z")
[Georgia is mulling opening a second front with Russia to get back their land](https://www.kyivpost.com/world/georgia-mulls-holding-vote-on-fighting-to-regain-land.html). They’re suggesting that Ukraine endorsed the idea, which I don’t think is likely (officially, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8063 "2022-09-15T12:28:54Z")
The car crash that Zelensky was involved in was mentioned in the previous post, but in the form of a video report that “is not available in your country”. Here’s a CNN article about it. Zelensky wasn’t hurt (at least, not seriously) but it wouldn’t surprise me if this was the work of one of Putin’s stooges: > **[Ukraine President Zelensky has 'no serious injuries' after car accident | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/14/europe/zelensky-car-crash-intl/index.html)** > > Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has emerged with "no serious injuries" from a car collision in Kyiv on Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8064 "2022-09-15T12:54:53Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > [Georgia is mulling opening a second front with Russia to get back their land](https://www.kyivpost.com/world/georgia-mulls-holding-vote-on-fighting-to-regain-land.html). It’s hard to tell how serious a proposal this is, but if this is really being considered: Good God, what hubris. Holding a _referendum_ for an offensive to take back Russian-occupied territory? That 1) assumes that Russia is utterly powerless rather than merely weak, 2) assumes that Russia will make a sober cost/benefit analysis before responding [despite all evidence to the contrary], 3) takes away any element of surprise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=399) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=401)