# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 404
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8125 "2022-09-17T13:37:06Z")
always worthwhile reading: > **[Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-16)** > > The revelations of mass graves of civilians and torture chambers in newly liberated Izyum confirm ISW’s previous assessments that the Bucha atrocities were not isolated war crimes but rather a microcosm of Russian atrocities throughout... … highlighting the following aspect: Ukrainian forces reportedly shelled targets in **Valuyki, Belgorod Oblast, Russia** , overnight on September 15-16. … A Russian source claimed that Ukrainian forces fired over 20 rounds at Valuyki from positions 20km southwest of the city, which is within Ukrainian tube artillery range… Valuyki is situated on a critical Russian rail line to northern Luhansk Oblast. Ukrainian forces have cut Russian Ground Lines of Communication (GLOCs) through Kharkiv Oblast, likely forcing Russian forces to redirect logistics from the large bases and concentration points around Belgorod City through the Valuyki rail line. Sustained damage to this rail line would severely complicate Russian logistics supporting the Russian defense of Luhansk Oblast and eastern Kharkiv Oblast. A Russian source stated that the **Luhansk People’s Republic (LNR) 206th Regiment is defending in Russia itself** near Valuyki, indicating Russia is deploying proxy forces to screen Russian logistics – and additionally indicating the increasing Russian reliance on proxy forces for tasks even in Russia ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8126 "2022-09-17T14:29:31Z")
> [@DETXL](#): > > Since… basically after the start of the invasion, it’s been a real shock to see the battles Dr. Pollack talks about in Armies of Sand or Arabs at War playing out again in 2022, with the Russians having apparently learned none of the lessons Soviets advisors tried to impress on their allies. A “culture of institutionalized lying”\* chief among them—lying about the disposition of your unit, about where the enemy is, about whether you’re engaging them. > > I saw somebody on Twitter compare the Kharkiv offensive to the Six-Day War, and I think the Russian rationalization is going to echo some of the narrative around that one, too—that Israel’s opponents were out-equipped by technology unfairly provided to them by the West. But the IDF didn’t enjoy an overwhelming technological advantage in 1967 any more than they did in 1948. No technology could’ve saved the Egyptians or Syrians from their catastrophically, astonishingly incompetent soldiering. Relevant: > **[Why Arabs Lose Wars](https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/why-arabs-lose-wars)** > > Arabic-speaking armies have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s.1 Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming Put those same features to Russia’s systemic practice of lying to each other, and you get the evil clown show we’ve been seeing in Ukraine these past six months. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8127 "2022-09-17T15:36:06Z")
Latest US aid package ~$600 million, no surprises: Capabilities in this package include: - Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); No ATACMS. - 36,000 105mm artillery rounds; Additional for existing howitzers in country. - 1,000 precision-guided 155mm artillery rounds; Almost assuredly Excalibur rounds. - Four counter-artillery radars; - Four trucks and eight trailers to transport heavy equipment; To move captured Russian vehicles. - Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems; Downing Iranian drones - Mine clearing equipment; Russians leave all sorts of crap lying around. - Claymore anti-personnel munitions; - Demolition munitions and equipment; - Small arms and ammunition; - Night vision devices, cold weather gear, and other field equipment. Note that these aren’t, “just emptying the surplus shelf”, they are specific Ukrainian requests. Air defense package of NASMS expected within two months. > **[NASAMS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASAMS)** > > NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, also known as the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System) is a distributed and networked short- to medium-range: 4  ground-based air defense system developed by Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace (KDA) and Raytheon. The system defends against unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), helicopters, cruise missiles, unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs), and fixed wing aircraft,: 11  firing any of a wide range of existing missiles. > NASAMS was t... ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8128 "2022-09-17T17:23:27Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Put those same features to Russia’s systemic practice of lying to each other, and you get the evil clown show we’ve been seeing in Ukraine these past six months. Also the same lack of NCOs, which I found interesting. My takeaway from the conversation both here and in that article is that NCOs are the backbone of the military. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8129 "2022-09-17T17:44:29Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > My takeaway from the conversation both here and in that article is that NCOs are the backbone of the military. Any sergeant could have told you that! 😛 It’s a truism that goes back to the Romans at least. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8130 "2022-09-17T17:49:05Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > My takeaway from the conversation both here and in that article is that NCOs are the backbone of the military. So they’re literally spineless? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8131 "2022-09-17T18:10:38Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > My takeaway is that NCOs are the backbone of the military I assume you have no military experience. And I’ve met plenty of such people (especially American college students) who imagine that an army is some scary, and totally alien world, where anybody wearing a uniform is somehow totally different than a regular human being–some kind of robot who always follows orders and kills . But an army is just a group of people who have a job to do. To make it easier (and less scary)for you to understand, you can compare an army to something you know more about from your personal experience in the civilian world: a business, or a factory. A factory is a thousand employees all working together to make a product. Somebody has to be the “general”–i.e the head manager. And lots of others are the “privates” --the workers on the factory assembly line. There are also a few “colonels” and “lieutenants” (engineers, salesmen) who keep the factory working and profitable. And then there are the “NCO’s”–who are vital! The “general”–the big boss, thinks he knows everything about the company…but he only reads reports, he doesn’t have real experience. The salesman “lieutenant” thinks he knows all about the product…but he knows nothing about how it is produced. The engineer “colonel” knows how to give instructions about what to do.He’s got the facts and figures --but only on paper. But it is the sergeants, the NCOs who actually make sure that the work gets done. These are the shift foremen and the supervisors on the factory floor. They know how to operate the machinery, and how to motivate their men to stay on time and on schedule. So yes…it is absolutely true–the NCO’s in the army are the backbone of the organization. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8132 "2022-09-17T18:21:38Z")
Yep, total civilian, not even particularly into war movies or videogames, though not averse either. I find it telling that the image in my mind of the essence of the military is Gunnery Sergeant Hartman. How does the military even function without those guys? Is it really true that having a robust NCO…system?..requires, or at least is greatly aided by, being a part of a free and democratic (and upwardly mobile) society? Seems like kind of a huge strategic advantage to get “for free” just from the way your society is structured. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8133 "2022-09-17T18:31:42Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Any sergeant could have told you that! 😛 > > It’s a truism that goes back to the Romans at least. “C’mon you apes! Wanta live forever?” - unknown US platoon sergeant, 1917 (quoted by RAH). ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8134 "2022-09-17T19:06:44Z")
Hmm, looks like Kherson is heating up. The Russians claim it was a ‘counter-terrorism’ incident. Given their track record with the facts, and reports of shooting in more than one district, I suspect that Ukraine is probing the edges of Kherson at the very least. > **[WATCH: Explosions reported in 'counter-terrorism' incident in...](https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/09/17/watch-explosions-reported-in-counter-terrorism-incident-in-russian-occupied-city-of-kherson-ukraine/)** > > Explosions have been reported in a 'counter-terrorism' incident in the Russian-occupied city of Kherson, Ukraine ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8135 "2022-09-17T19:13:09Z")
US government sources are starting to think Putin is done. > **[For Vladimir Putin, This Is the Beginning of the End](https://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-this-beginning-end-1743488?amp=1)** > > U.S. intelligence officials are gun-shy about making predictions. But "Putin has to be contemplating his own survival at this point," says one. Relevant quote: Now comes the hard part," the State Department official says, referring to what happens with Ukraine’s advances. "All eyes on Putin? Hell yes. Will he destroy Russia to stay in power? Or will Russia destroy him, finally holding him accountable for his Ukrainian blunder? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8136 "2022-09-17T19:27:06Z")
I doubt that many Russians are aware that Putin unleashed this humanitarian catastrophe based entirely on a self-serving pack of lies. It’s ironic that Putin’s decline is due entirely to his disastrous failures in Ukraine, which are impossible to hide. If he’d succeeded as he had hoped, I’m sure he’d be hailed as a hero. I’m also sure that his demise would be considerably hastened if more Russian people were aware of the true nature of this war’s origins. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8137 "2022-09-17T19:57:05Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Hmm, looks like Kherson is heating up. The Russians claim it was a ‘counter-terrorism’ incident. Given their track record with the facts, and reports of shooting in more than one district, I suspect that Ukraine is probing the edges of Kherson at the very least. One of the videos showed a street sign of kids running. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8138 "2022-09-17T20:05:38Z")
Any commander would prepare a route out of a battle. I hope they use it very soon. 😉 Sunken Railroad cars aren’t that strong? Troops could walk over them. Tanks and Trucks? Imho that’s not possible unless the sunken rail cars are filled with gravel or dirt. Something to keep the rail cars from crushing. CNN live blog > [@](#): > > ## Ukraine claims Russians are creating retreat routes from southern Kherson region > > From CNN’s Mariya Knight > > Russian forces are preparing retreat routes from the Kherson region, Ukraine’s military claimed in an update Saturday. > > In today’s update, a Ukrainian military spokesperson claimed Russians sunk nine railway cars to construct a crossing in the city of Kakhovka. > > > "Due to the successful actions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to disable all crossings across the Dnipro River on the Kherson front, the occupiers are preparing their retreat routes,” Oleksandr Shtupun, spokesperson for the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, said in a social media post. > > Kherson is [considered crucial](https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/30/europe/ukraine-kherson-counteroffensive-intl/index.html) to controlling Ukraine’s southern coast and access to the Black Sea. It was one of the first areas to be occupied by Russian forces when they invaded nearly seven months ago. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8139 "2022-09-17T22:25:30Z")
Russian woman, proud of her Russian heritage, laid to rest draped in azure and or after a landmne ended her stout efforts to defend Ukraine from Russia. > **[Ukraine pays tribute to Russian woman who fought on its side](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-8b7abcd09c51831681cdc86902f535e6)** > > KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — An honor guard fired a three-gun salute toward cloudy skies as friends and comrades-in-arms gathered in Kyiv to bid farewell to a Russian woman who was killed while fighting on Ukraine’s side in the war with her native country. Are there women fighting in the invading army? ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8140 "2022-09-17T23:07:40Z")
Interesting. Military engineers can do some amazing things fast. Often pre rehearsed and tested. Maybe getting the rail cars side by side, then laying prefab sections on top of them would be very sturdy. How the hell they get it somewhat level and stable, I have no idea. But it seems if they get the thing made well, it would then be valuable to the other side if you lose it after retreat. Should be well loaded up with demolitions for destruction after use. Now I am wondering, how the hell do you float rail cars out there and sink them? Major damn operation. All the while maybe being shelled? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8141 "2022-09-17T23:14:36Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Should be well loaded up with demolitions for destruction after use. Not to worry. If the Russians start to build this, the Ukraine army will be kind enough to blow it up for them while it is in use. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8142 "2022-09-17T23:18:08Z")
If Russia retreats across it. Then Ukraine would want to keep it, to advance across it. Thanks for the fine bridge comrades. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8143 "2022-09-17T23:21:40Z")
> [@Kedikat](#): > > Now I am wondering, how the hell do you float rail cars out there and sink them? Major damn operation. All the while maybe being shelled? It’s amazing how efficient the Russian Army is in retreat. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2022, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8144 "2022-09-17T23:23:45Z")
Don’t worry. I’m sure that " Russian fighters in Umm Qasr (I mean Izium of course) are giving the hordes of Ukraine mercenaries the taste of definite death. We have drawn them into a quagmire and they will never get out of it." If that doesn’t work then probably “Steiner’s assault will bring it under control.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=403) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=405)