# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 422
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8487 "2022-09-24T17:46:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So the EU countries should give notice that they are no longer parties to the Refugee Convention? They should point out that refugee status doesn’t grant citizenship and any Russian who doesn’t like it will be sent packing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8488 "2022-09-24T17:49:10Z")
Citizenship is a different issue than a right to enter as a refugee. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8489 "2022-09-24T18:00:37Z")
Isn’t someone fleeing their country to save their skin literally the definition of a refugee? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8490 "2022-09-24T18:22:14Z")
Pretty much. And yes, maybe it wasn’t courageous to worry about the war in Ukraine when it just meant you had trouble getting consumer goods, but now that you or yours are facing a draft, the mind has been concentrated. but the basic question is: “will the government come after me for my political / religious / ethnic position?” If so, there’s a good chance you’re a refugee. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8491 "2022-09-24T18:25:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Citizenship is a different issue than a right to enter as a refugee. What’s your point? A refugee isn’t a grant of status beyond visitor. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8492 "2022-09-24T18:25:23Z")
Yeah, the Russian people should not be seen as the enemy here. That just leads towards hatred and petty reprisals. It’s the Russian leadership that is the problem. I don’t care if it is purely selfish - every Russian that wants out from under that particular regime should be given the option of fleeing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8493 "2022-09-24T18:30:15Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yeah, the Russian people should not be seen as the enemy here. It also doesn’t make them a friend. We have no idea who someone is by way of a petition for sanctuary. It should not be an open invitation to citizenship. They need to earn that status. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8494 "2022-09-24T18:31:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It should not be an open invitation to citizenship. They need to earn that status. I have no particular opinion on that at all. I’m just opposed to sealing the borders so they can’t get out at all, whether it is for a month or potentially a lifetime if they do become citizens of another state somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8495 "2022-09-24T18:34:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What’s your point? A refugee isn’t a grant of status beyond visitor. I was initially responding to the suggestion by Al128 that the EU should close their borders to all Russians. Doing so would be contrary to the International Convention on Refugees. I have no idea why you brought citizenship into the discussion, since it’s completely irrelevant to refugee status. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8496 "2022-09-24T18:38:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I was initially responding to the suggestion by Al128 that the EU should close their borders to all Russians. Doing so would be contrary to the International Convention on Refugees. > > I have no idea why you brought citizenship into the discussion, since it’s completely irrelevant to refugee status. It’s relevant when you are engaging military resources against Russia in a proxy war. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8497 "2022-09-24T18:39:51Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > My take: don’t let any significant # of russians in … (exceptions apply - e.g. non-aligned journalists, confirmed dissidents) > > just look at the **russian playbook** (and yes, i do exaggerate for dramatic effect) > > - lot’s of russian young males and many hypermasculinisized > - they probably aggregate in places, most likely in eastern europe (due to language similarities) - possibly in poland/chec countries/bulgaria > - lots of drinking > - lots of trouble with westeners (guest country populace) > - then they call for russian help b/c they are not allow to “express themselves” as they wish > - Lavrov will decry the abuse of russians in the west in UN speeches > - Putin will pre-record speeches warning of crossing red lines abusing russian youth > - russia is forced to prepare an invasion to “protect” their populace in poland/bulgaria > - rinse-lather-repeat > > … and once you have some 10.000s of russian males in your country - there is no way to get rid of them … where would you send them??? > > so my take: **let the russians stay in russia and let russia figure out a solution for russian problems caused by russia -** EU has nothing to win in this dog-fight. Substitute “Russians” for “Jews” and “Putin” for “Hitler” and see if this argument doesn’t sound familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8498 "2022-09-24T18:41:57Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yeah, the Russian people should not be seen as the enemy here. That just leads towards hatred and petty reprisals. It’s the Russian leadership that is the problem. Even if the wording in [**THIS**](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2022/09/15/commentary/world-commentary/russian-war-support/) article frames it in a very questionable form, … here are some hard numbers _For starters, support for the Kremlin’s so-called special military operation in Ukraine is not necessarily wholehearted. In August, less than half of survey respondents (46%) reported that they “definitely support” the Russian military’s activities, with 30% saying that they “mostly support” it (figures that have barely changed since April)._ So, **76% of russians mostly or definitely support the war** … so spinning it as a “It’s Putin’s war, not the russian’s” does not reflect reality … THE POPULACE in Russia is def. a part of the problem! ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8499 "2022-09-24T18:44:55Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > ETA: I wonder what people would think of Canada today if it’s government, during the US war in Vietnam, had aggressively denied entry to or returned Vietnam War resisters, on the premise that such resister should go back home and protest rather than flee conscription? Poorly indeed. But Canada has always been one of the United States’ closest allies. I thought the average Russian in the street saw NATO as the enemy. Why run to the enemy instead of a close ally like Belarus? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8500 "2022-09-24T18:45:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Substitute “Russians” for “Jews” and “Putin” for “Hitler” and see if this argument doesn’t sound familiar. It doesn’t sound familiar because Putin isn’t exterminating Russians. He’s at war with Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8501 "2022-09-24T18:46:32Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I thought the average Russian in the street saw NATO as the enemy. Why run to the enemy instead of a close ally like Belarus? Well that would be downright logical. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8502 "2022-09-24T18:47:09Z")
somewhat more ON topic: > . but also… . > ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8503 "2022-09-24T18:52:19Z")
What a mess. Forcing Ukrainians to fight their own forces. Washington Post Article covers the referendum and Russian mobilization. Cite [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/with-kalashnikov-rifles-russia-drives-the-staged-vote-in-ukraine/ar-AA12cGSK) > [@](#): > > In a late-night address on Friday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky called the referendums a “sham” — echoing Western leaders. > > “These are not just crimes against international law and the law of Ukraine,” Zelensky said. “These are crimes against specific people, against the nation.” > > Zelensky also said that occupation authorities had begun to mobilize local Ukrainians to fight against Kyiv forces, a prospect that Ukrainians should avoid “by any means.” > > If they do end up drafted, however, Zelensky called on them to “sabotage any activity of the enemy, hinder any Russian operations, provide us with any important information about the occupiers” and, at the first opportunity, “switch to our positions.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8504 "2022-09-24T18:52:57Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > But Canada has always been one of the United States’ closest allies. Except when you invaded us in 1775, and again in 1812, and Patriots invaded in 1838, and Fenians invaded in 1866, and in 1870… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8505 "2022-09-24T19:04:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A refugee isn’t a grant of status beyond visitor. Nope. If refugee status is recognised in the new country, it confers a right of residency. The receiving country cannot expel the refugee and is generally required to provide a path to naturalization. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/8506 "2022-09-24T19:07:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Substitute “Russians” for “Jews” and “Putin” for “Hitler” and see if this argument doesn’t sound familiar. Your analogy is fucking disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. Putin isn’t trying to eliminate Russians from the planet and there isn’t a chance that a Jewish refugee could have been a sleeper agent for the Nazis. And don’t even thing of goysplaining to my why I shouldn’t be disgusted by this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=421) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=423)