# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/841 "2022-03-02T13:29:50Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Yeah, I wouldn’t want to fly (heh, not a pilot, anyway) in an environment the size of Texas with 250 S-300 systems looking for me unless I was in a very stealthy craft. And it’s actually much worse than that, because those systems were largely developed and tested against Russian aircraft and radars (much like US systems are largely tested against US systems). There would be very little doubt that a Russian-designed and Russian-built system would be very effective at detecting and shooting down Russian aircraft. There only hope would be sending in newer stealthy aircraft, which I can imagine they would be _very_ hesitant to do - the cost of losing one is orders of magnitude worse than losing multiple older aircraft just for Intel reasons alone. With the amount of foreign assets observing the battlespace it’s also risky to expose too much tactical information (war-reserve Radar modes, aircraft capabilities) for new weapon systems. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/842 "2022-03-02T13:31:09Z")
So which fascists do we root for? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/843 "2022-03-02T13:31:40Z")
A meteor strike. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/844 "2022-03-02T13:35:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure. However, this only works for simple jobs… and simple weapons. Exactly. And, by sheer non-coincidence, the AK-47 and RPG were designed to be used by conscripts with very little training…or by a peasant straight off the field, handed a weapon and basically told to fight. It can be maintained, or so I’m told, with some motor oil and a knotted shoelace and is very, very hard to break. 😛 Seriously, though, as weapons to be used by civilians in the defense of their homes, Russian weapons, in general, are both simple and rugged and ideally suited to this role. They are arguably the best in the world in this role, in fact. And Ukraine has a lot of former Soviet equipment that they have been handing out to the civilians who want to fight for their homes. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/845 "2022-03-02T14:19:46Z")
If Bill Roggio is to be believed, they are now attempting a pincer movement North East of Kyiv, which would trap Ukraine force there. From the map, force South West of Kyiv are there to prevent the Kyiv garrison from hitting tye exposed flank. Guys are we sure Kyiv was their aim? > ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/846 "2022-03-02T14:23:25Z")
I thought [this](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60571737) was interesting. It’s a BBC article highlighting some of the news shows and reporting that is happening in Russia right now. The overall theme is that this isn’t a war, it’s a military incursion to root out neo-nazis and Ukrainian nationalists who are using women and children as human shields while they hit civilian targets in the breakaway regions. It shows what a heavily state-controlled media can do wrt a unified message getting out to everyone, and how it can be used to bolster the theme and message of the state’s ruler and the ruling party. Of course, there is this part here: > [@](#): > > Increasing numbers of younger Russians tend to get their news from independent websites or social media, and the longer the war goes on, the more images and videos of dead soldiers and prisoners of war are surfacing. But the authorities are responding to this and turning the screws on independent reporting. > > Roskomnadzor has ordered TikTok to remove military and political content in its suggestions to minors, complaining, “in most cases, these materials have a pronounced anti-Russian character”. It also demanded that Google remove what it describes as false information about the Russian army’s reported losses, and Reuters reports it has re-imposed a slowdown on Twitter’s loading speeds over “fake reports” of Moscow’s “special military operation”, and restricted access to Facebook. > > It has instructed media outlets to use information only from official Russian sources when reporting the invasion, demanding that they take down any reports referring to “a declaration of war” or “an invasion”. It has threatened them with fines and blocking if they do not take action. The websites of the independent TV channel **Dozhd** and popular liberal radio station **Ekho Moskvy** have been blocked for alleged calls for extremism and violence, and “systematic spread of false information about the activities of the Russian military”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/847 "2022-03-02T14:23:54Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > It seems to mean something like “built-in” or perhaps “moving as part of the same battle group”, but I can’t tell for sure. Anyone know? This term has been in use since WWII and means resources operating together with and under the command of a group. Various services and departments have their own priorities for the resources in their areas of conflict, and found that trying to rely on resources from other services and departments was often inadequate for their needs. As such, they wanted to have their own dedicated units. Here is an example quoting [a report](https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/24/2001330076/-1/-1/0/AFD-100924-003.pdf) at the end of the war. > [@](#): > > An After Action Assessment report recommended that the army have “ground support aviation **organic to** and operated by ground forces…,” and that the aircraft procured for this purpose be of the “flying artillery and flying tank type” for exclusive support of ground forces. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/848 "2022-03-02T14:54:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What the Russians and plenty of others don’t realize is that up until last week, Russia thought of the United States as its mortal enemy, while the United States thought of Russia as… just another country, when it bothered to think of it at all. Sort of like San Francisco and Los Angeles. (San Franciscan: ‘L.A. sucks!’ Los Angelino: ‘San Francisco? Oh, yeah. It’s up north somewhere.’) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/849 "2022-03-02T14:59:01Z")
I’ve been watching the POW interviews. It’s obvious they aren’t professional soldiers. They’re most likely conscripts with little training. They definitely weren’t expecting combat. It makes sense Putin used them in the initial battles. They’re expendable. I bet they were equipped with outdated equipment. I think the professional Russian army is being held in reserve. They’ll be a lot more brutal and decisive in battle. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/850 "2022-03-02T15:23:38Z")
seriously! a world wide pandemic followed by tanks rolling into a neighbouring country. so last century. i certainly did not think i would see a parallel of my parent’s history. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/851 "2022-03-02T16:28:21Z")
Reasons why that Russian convoy is still held up… The scene at the town of Bucha, about 25km north-east of the centre of Kyiv today: [![](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/02/13/54843395-10568739-The_gutted_remains_of_Russian_military_vehicles_on_a_road_in_the-a-11_1646228770248.jpg) ](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/02/13/54843395-10568739-The_gutted_remains_of_Russian_military_vehicles_on_a_road_in_the-a-11_1646228770248.jpg) [![](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/02/11/54848635-10568739-image-a-39_1646220160974.jpg) ](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/02/11/54848635-10568739-image-a-39_1646220160974.jpg)   Also, in an announcement a few minutes ago: > Armed Forces of Ukraine have fully cleared Makariv in the Kyiv region - Commander-in-Chief Zaluzhny says Makariv is where the main Russian thrust was, trying to bypass and encircle Kyiv. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/852 "2022-03-02T16:33:03Z")
Russians hit the Holocaust memorial site Babi Yar in the capital city of Kyiv. It feels oddly satisfying to see destroyed Russian tanks. I think they’re the same models blown up in Kuwait in 1991? They’re wonderful targets for thermal signature sights. > **[Babi Yar, Kyiv's Holocaust memorial to victims of Nazis, damaged in Russian...](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/babi-yar-kyiv-s-holocaust-memorial-to-victims-of-nazis-damaged-in-russian-bombing-attack/ar-AAUtLhD)** > > Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the Russian military had bombed a nearby radio tower that killed five people and damaged the memorial. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/853 "2022-03-02T16:33:27Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Reasons why that Russian convoy is still held up… > > The scene at the town of Bucha, about 25km north-east of the centre of Kyiv today: Reminds me of the Highway of Death. > **[Highway of Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death)** > > Coalition intervention > Naval operations > Air campaign ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/854 "2022-03-02T17:26:49Z")
Russia has released casualty numbers for its troops for the first time. Previous to this they have denied there have been any casualites. 498 killed 1,597 wounded Of course the Ukrainians are claiming much higher numbers than this. So what the real numbers are is anyone’s guess. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/855 "2022-03-02T17:28:33Z")
> [@Smapti (quoting twitter)](#): > > “Franz Ferdinand pulls Russian tour” Back in the '80s the National Association of Newspaper Editors (or something like that) had a convention in Oakland. They had a contest, the most startling headline imaginable. The winner was judged, **FRANZ FERDINAND FOUND ALIVE** _ **WWI all a mistake** _ ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/856 "2022-03-02T17:54:56Z")
From the Guardian: > **A Russian negotiator said a ceasefire is on the agenda in talks between [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) and Russia, AFP reports.** I’m sure Russia would like a pause to their equipment being blown up so that they can reorganize and get more supplies lined up. As it seems their logistics and supply lines have been a total shit-show. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/857 "2022-03-02T18:00:09Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Of course the Ukrainians are claiming much higher numbers than this. So what the real numbers are is anyone’s guess. Ukrainians have just said over 7,000 Russians killed. So the real number is somewhere between 498 and a little bit over 7,000. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/858 "2022-03-02T18:01:25Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Of course the Ukrainians are claiming much higher numbers than this. So what the real numbers are is anyone’s guess. Neither is trustworthy in the slightest. Even the combatants themselves are unlikely to have an accurate count in any real sense as the fog of war tends to make such things hard to track in real time. But regardless anything they release is going to be for propaganda purposes first and foremost. Or to put it more bluntly - lies. Ukraine should not be considered any more reliable a priori. We’ll get a truer count maybe a few years after the fighting is done. That said the Russian numbers, obviously released to counter Ukrainian claims that are more than 10x higher, are still interesting for what they do admit. Russia has now admitted to more losses than Coalition forces took in the entirety of the Gulf War. It further highlights something we already knew - that this is not a low intensity war. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/859 "2022-03-02T18:13:28Z")
I was going to start a thread for this, but decided we’ve got too many Ukraine threads already: **What is Ukraine’s _realistic_ path to victory?** Despite all the good news thus far, I can’t help but suspect that this is like watching Mercer University vs. Alabama and somehow Mercer has scored a couple of touchdowns and everyone’s cheering because they’re up 14-0 in the first quarter, but one knows that Nick SabanPutin and Co. are eventually going to steamroll Mercer in the next three quarters. Without some form of direct intervention, how does Ukraine hold off Russia indefinitely or even in fact eject them from Ukrainian soil? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/860 "2022-03-02T18:17:28Z")
Ukraine wins if Russia withdraws. That happens if Putin falls. Maybe also if Putin can find a way to declare victory - perhaps a ceasefire and keeps the disputed territories. I doubt Ukraine would agree to disarm and stay neutral and outside of the EU. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=44)