# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 448
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9007 "2022-10-03T20:43:25Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’d love to see Putin’s reaction. Unfortunately, we’ll never see it. Maybe he throws plates of ketchup covered fries too. I sometimes wonder how insulated Putin is. Does he watch tv, read online? What do all his yes men screen from him? Hell, maybe he’ll never even hear about this. Maybe everyone is afraid of falling out a window if they bear bad news. After seeing his pre taped announcements and his 50 foot long table to keep people away from him, who knows? Hah! Got there first, @Balance ! ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9008 "2022-10-03T20:43:30Z")
Do you think he will be told about it? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9009 "2022-10-03T20:48:25Z")
As a career KGB officer and paranoid despot, I have to believe Putin places a high premium on knowing what’s going on in his own ranks and populace. I bet he’s heard about it already. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9010 "2022-10-03T21:24:19Z")
It’s all speculation, of course, but I think if Russia used a nuclear weapon in Ukraine, China’s response would be… muted. Disapproving, to be sure, but not nearly as forceful as we would like. The use of a nuclear weapon in a war in Europe – obviously, for us in the West, that would be a game-changer, and we like to think that the rest of the world would react similarly. But there’s no reason to believe it would fundamentally transform Beijing’s geopolitical approach. Chinese foreign policy is based on a very narrow view of what is good for China and on an unusually transactional relationship with other countries. China has only one formal ally – North Korea. If anything, China finds Russia very useful as a partner in standing against Western values and US hegemony. Has the People’s Republic of China ever, in its history, joined a coalition with the West? Joined a strict sanctions regime with the West? Sure, China would much prefer global stability and the non-use of nuclear weapons. But it can’t prevent the use of nuclear weapons by Russia or the West, and if anything of the sort occurs, it will likely continue to focus on its own narrow, realpolitik goals. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9011 "2022-10-03T21:29:25Z")
A 2,600 mile shared border gives China ample reason to watch Russia closely. Erratic actions like using a nuke would be cause for concern. It does seem inconceivable that Russia would mess with China > **[China–Russia border](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Russia_border)** > > The Chinese–Russian border or the Sino-Russian border is the international border between China and Russia. After the final demarcation carried out in the early 2000s, it measures 4,209.3 kilometres (2,615.5 mi), and is the world's sixth-longest international border. > The China–Russian border consists of two non-contiguous sections separated: the long eastern section between Mongolia and North Korea and the much shorter western section between Kazakhstan and Mongolia. > The eastern border section ... ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9012 "2022-10-03T22:03:29Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > Disapproving, to be sure, but not nearly as forceful as we would like. You may be right. But I can think of at least one reason China might have a strong negative reaction to Russia using a tactical nuke: it opens door for other nations to use tactical nukes. Like, for example, in the defense of Taiwan. If China ever does attack Taiwan, they’ll do so when they have an overwhelming numerical superiority. Exactly the kind of situation someone might be tempted to use a tactical nuke. By taking strong action against a rogue Russian nuke, they make it harder for nukes to be used against themselves. Bottom line: I think China is more likely to see themselves as the victim of a nuclear attack than the aggressor. Edited to add: and I got to believe Western diplomats are and will-be making these points to China. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9013 "2022-10-03T22:22:16Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@mordecaiB](#): > > > > Even having known about the drinking habits of a lot of Russians, this war has really brought this to the forefront. I’ve seen many videos of totally shitfaced Russians that are already in uniform. If the alcoholism is as bad as it appears, that’s going to be a big medical problem in the field. > > I wonder too about the smoking habits of the new recruits. If the Russian supply problems extend to cigarettes (which I’m sure they do), then the Ukrainian army will just have to offer the soldiers a carton of Primas to switch sides. thinking about it … I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the worst war crimes (rape of children, castration, cut off fingers….) are directly related to alcohol abuse … I have a hard time imagining a sober person doing this ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9014 "2022-10-03T23:14:22Z")
Alcohol lowers inhibitions, it doesn’t create ideas. It may be more likely for those things to happen with intoxicated troops but such evil doesn’t require alcohol or drugs to occur. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9015 "2022-10-04T01:28:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Nukes would kill or seriously injure everyone on the battlefield. Russian and Ukrainian. [Tactical nukes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_nuclear_weapon), which is the saber that Putin it rattling, are not the city-thumping bombs you’re thinking of. A tactical nuke would be a dial-a-yield weapon that could be used on the battlefield. Putin just sent [4 TU-160’s and 3 TU-95 bombers to the Olenegorsk](https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2022/10/newly-deployed-nuke-bombers-kola-certainly-signaling-expert-says) air base where they keep them. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9016 "2022-10-04T01:58:45Z")
I’d like to believe NATO could intercept and shoot down the bombers before they complete their mission. I understand missile defense capabilities isn’t something NATO would disclose. But, all the Russian equipment we’ve seen is old and obsolete. Their bombers should be similar. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9017 "2022-10-04T02:19:02Z")
Apparently Ukraine attacked the convoys leaving Lyman. It is the smart thing to do. Ukraine doesn’t want them retreating to a new defensive position and continuing to fight. Kill them and destroy the equipment while they’re vulnerable. > **[Ukraine: footage shows remains of Russian convoy fleeing Lyman – video](https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2022/oct/02/ukraine-footage-shows-remains-of-russian-convoy-fleeing-lyman-video)** > > Ukraine's military has released footage which it says shows the remains of a Russian military convoy that fled Lyman for Kreminna ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9018 "2022-10-04T02:20:29Z")
In the 21st Century, strategic bombers are primarily missile platforms. The current Russian heavy bomber fleet can be fitted with conventional- and nuclear-armed cruise missiles and, in the context of the current conflict, can launch from outside the borders of the war zone and still hit targets as needed. (Assuming the missiles themselves guide correctly, don’t crash, don’t get shot down en route, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9019 "2022-10-04T02:21:59Z")
So NATO wouldn’t know what missiles they’re launching until it’s too late? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9020 "2022-10-04T02:23:30Z")
Probably not. Some of the cruise missiles used to hit Ukrainian cities have been bomber-launched conventional cruise missiles, launched from within internationally-recognized Russian airspace. That would be literally indistinguishable from the same missile with a nuclear warhead until detonation at target (if everything goes according to plan). The main warning you might get is if intelligence detects behavior patterns in Russian military formations that indicate they’re prepping for a nuclear launch. Things like drawing warheads or prepared missiles from the separate storage systems that NATO intel understands to be part of the nuclear force. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9021 "2022-10-04T02:30:18Z")
While they have exhibited some shabby ground equipment they do better with their aircraft. They were the first with a passive phased array radar in their Mig-31. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9022 "2022-10-04T02:43:02Z")
Shabby aircraft tend not to fly, or not fly very well, or create smoking craters instead of landings so in order to have an air force at all a certain minimum competence is required. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9023 "2022-10-04T02:59:59Z")
Only fair. After all, Russia shelled the “safe corridors” they said they’d leave open for civilians to use in evacuating cities the Russians were about to take over. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9024 "2022-10-04T06:35:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Alcohol lowers inhibitions, it doesn’t create ideas. It may be more likely for those things to happen with intoxicated troops but such evil doesn’t require alcohol or drugs to occur. Absolutely. There is no shortage of people who are willing to do horrific things just because they want/like to do them. They can say it’s because of anger, revenge or even fear, but it boils down to they want to do it and the opportunity is there for them to get away with it. And it’s definitely not limited to the battlefield, we see it all the time in everyday situations. Just look at how many Americans, safe at home, were totally in favor of what went on at Guantanamo Bay. Even the Abu Ghraib tortures had many supporters. I don’t like using the word evil in these situations because, to me, it suggests that there needs to be some outside force they have no control over for humans to do horrific things to each other. Humans are quite capable of being horrible all by themselves, > [@Morgyn](#): > > Only fair. After all, Russia shelled the “safe corridors” they said they’d leave open for civilians to use in evacuating cities the Russians were about to take over. And these are not civilians. If they can keep up this offensive at the current pace, Ukraine will be in a much better position to set up defensive lines as the weather worsens. Once the bad weather hits, I imagine operations will slow considerably. The farther they push the Russians now, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9025 "2022-10-04T08:11:07Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Russia’s tactical nukes (or at least their vehicles and mobile launchers) [would] need to move much closer to Ukraine to be within range… (Quote is a tldr of an article and edited by me) > This was originally reported by a Russian telegram channel so no doubt this was carefully orchestrated by the Kremlin. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2022, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9026 "2022-10-04T09:27:22Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > How much is a carton of smokes and a fifth of vodka? That may well be cheaper than sending weapons. 🙂 Seriously, we should just send a big banner to the Ukrainians they could put up on the battlefield reading (in Russian) “Surrender now! We have vodka, cigarettes and Wifi!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=447) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=449)