# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 458
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9209 "2022-10-07T21:15:55Z")
there also seems to be a “night-of-long-knives” going on: > > . making this a bit shorter: . [![](https://i.postimg.cc/445RmkQ3/image.png) ](https://i.postimg.cc/445RmkQ3/image.png) ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9210 "2022-10-07T21:18:59Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > \*Another stupid military oxymoron Referencing “suicide drone”. Most drones are designed to return to their base, after either reconnaissance or delivering some form of ordinance. Separate nomenclature for ones that are deployed more as missiles (crash into something and explode) seems reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9211 "2022-10-07T21:19:19Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > So, how many Blackjack or Backfire bombers can the Russians lose before they feel like they have no choice but to use them in their nuclear attack mission? I don’t have an exact number in memory, but at the height of the Mariupol-asovstal- bombing, they brought the TU22 in for the heavy 500kg bombs on the factory … and some numbers were mentioned, and the number was surprisingly (for me) small … 60 planes of that type around (or ever built)? (high chance of me misremembering or generally screwing up 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9212 "2022-10-07T21:22:39Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Separate nomenclature for ones that are deployed more as missiles (crash into something and explode) seems reasonable. “Expendable” seems a better adjective than “suicide” or, even worse, “kamikaze”. They are merely guided missiles with wings; not a desperate military gamble. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9213 "2022-10-07T21:23:31Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Separate nomenclature for ones that are deployed more as missiles (crash into something and explode) seems reasonable. The nomenclature exists: “cruise missile”. I have no idea what bonehead coined that abomination of a pointless, unneeded, and wrongheaded neologism. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9214 "2022-10-07T21:24:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Also - supposedly not a Western/NATO drone at all, but an Iranian supplied one? Probably an “Alibaba” drone, so named because you can actually buy them online from China. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9215 "2022-10-07T21:25:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Has it been confirmed that the drone used was captured Russia ordinance on a return-to-sender mission? Because that would be icing on the cake. > > Also - supposedly not a Western/NATO drone at all, but an Iranian supplied one? I believe AI128 may be implying that it was probably a inside job (“the airfield is way closer to Moscow than to Kyiv”, which is not really true, it is _somewhat_ closer to Moscow). And we will never actually know accurate details, only what Kremlin MoI (or MoMI) tells us: _what they want the world to hear_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9216 "2022-10-07T21:32:10Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > The nomenclature exists: “cruise missile”. Cruise missiles don’t loiter. “Suicide drones” do. It’s a silly term but something new _was_ needed to distinguish from existing types. And since these are more likely based on drone platforms than cruise missile platforms, calling it a drone variant makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9217 "2022-10-07T21:34:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I believe AI128 may be implying that it was probably a inside job (“the airfield is way closer to Moscow than to Kyiv”, which is not really true, it is _somewhat_ closer to Moscow). And we will never actually know accurate details, only what Kremlin MoI (or MoMI) tells us: _what they want the world to hear_. no, no insider job assumption made … I was just surprised how far away from Ukr. this airfield was … I (implicitly) assumed it was close to the border - as Belograd or so … and the google map surprised me … what you are right about … how does a Ukr. drone get there? … were those some “rucksack” sized “nuisance” drones operated by some special agents? b/c that is some 400-500km off limits … and not even the bayraktar can go that far iirc … or anything in between like those south-corean huge-drones that can carry 6 or so granades I guess we have to wait for tomorrow’s sat pics (if there are any) and see how much damage was done and deduct from that what vehicle might have been used ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9218 "2022-10-07T21:34:51Z")
In the US we have those types of drones. An example is a Switchblade made by Aeroenvrionment. They call them “suicide drones” on their web page. I agree that someone should have come up with a better term. > **[Switchblade® 300 - Suicide Drone | Kamikaze Drone | AeroVironment, Inc.](https://www.avinc.com/tms/switchblade)** > > AeroVironment's Kamikaze Switchblade drone is an advanced direct fire loitering missile system that acts as a suicide drone with high precision capabilities, and wave-off feature minimizing collateral damage in hostile environments.AeroVironment,... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9219 "2022-10-07T21:37:49Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > So, how many Blackjack or Backfire bombers can the Russians lose before they feel like they have no choice but to use them in their nuclear attack mission? If the Russians are rational (which, admittedly, is a big “if” these days), they’ll sooner lose their entire bomber fleet than drop nuke bombs. After all, the consequences of dropping nukes are still much worse than losing all the bombers, and they still have ICBMs, SSBNs and other means of using nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9220 "2022-10-07T21:40:39Z")
Doesn’t the US get most of its tungsten from Russia, or has that changed in the 60 years since Lockheed was building the SR-71? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9221 "2022-10-07T21:49:39Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > how does a Ukr. drone get there? … were those some “rucksack” sized “nuisance” drones operated by some special agents? b/c that is some 400-500km off limits … and not even the bayraktar can go that far iirc The airbase is about 140 miles from the border. And, there is a nice big wooded national park along that part of the border – good cover for launching a non-ballistic missile from a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9222 "2022-10-07T21:56:40Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Doesn’t the US get most of its tungsten from Russia China produces \>25x as much tungsten as Russia: > **[mcs2022-tungsten.pdf](https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2022/mcs2022-tungsten.pdf)** In fact, China produces \>80% of all tungsten. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9223 "2022-10-07T21:57:01Z")
SR-71 was titanium. Tungsten would be a spectacularly bad choice for a plane for many reasons, not the least of which is weight. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9224 "2022-10-07T22:01:12Z")
See…this is why I find the use of tungsten puzzling. It weighs more than steel, it’s more expensive than steel, it is in limited supply, and the targets to be engaged are **not tanks**. I can’t see any reason steel wouldn’t be an improvement for the munition. Attacking from above does away with the need for maximum penetration. Guess this is why I don’t design munitions. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9225 "2022-10-07T22:01:12Z")
In sweet irony, the M777 howitzers that America has donated to Ukraine with which to fight Russia with are mostly made out of Russian titanium. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9226 "2022-10-07T22:05:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I can’t see any reason steel wouldn’t be an improvement for the munition. Consider going even farther: would styrofoam balls be an improvement? No; they wouldn’t transfer significant energy, and you could not fit many of them in the shell. When momentum and/or kinetic energy is the crucial factor, denser is pretty much always better. For the same mass, you can have a smaller volume, which makes the entire projectile smaller, which means less mass wasted on structure, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9227 "2022-10-07T22:08:16Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > In the US we have those types of drones. An example is a Switchblade made by Aeroenvrionment. They call them “suicide drones” on their web page. I agree that someone should have come up with a better term. The generic term covering a slew of existing and proposed weapons is “loitering munitions”. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9228 "2022-10-07T22:12:23Z")
Which, like I said, is the reason I’m not designing these things! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=457) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=459)