# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 494
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9952 "2022-10-21T21:32:07Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > What do they think will happen to them if their governments stop supporting Ukraine? Is anyone really so stupid as to believe that Putin won’t take that as a license to keep going? Pre-invasion, and especially if you go back to pre-2014, Ukraine was divided politically. A lot of the population was pro-Russia, especially the Russian speakers, and they viewed Viktor Yanukovych as the legitimate president of Russia. So for the European protestors who are in favour of neutrality and anti-sanctions, their argument is that it’s an old undecided political issue involving Ukraine and Russia, not all of Europe or the rest of the world. But realistically, the protestors arguing against intervention in Ukraine most likely don’t care about the politics or people of Ukraine. They want cheap energy. I don’t know how they expect their governments to deliver the cheap energy, but since the cause of expensive energy is the Ukraine war, then they want their government to stop supporting Ukraine in the war. That’s my speculation anyway. The other way of reading the quoted question is, if Russia is successful in its conquest of Ukraine, why would citizens of Russia’s or Ukraine’s other neighbours not be worried about being taken over? They are worried about it and the sentiments towards neutrality among their populace are much lower than in more distant European states. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9953 "2022-10-22T00:17:06Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > It’s worth noting though that there have been occurrences of anti-EU sentiment in recent weeks, even if they weren’t massive street protests. There has always been a certain percentage of Europeans who are against the European Union. The real question is if there has been an uptick in numbers recently. Although Ukraine is a factor in inflation it does not account for all of it and I’m suspicious of anyone attributing all of it to this conflict. Inflation is a feature of post-pandemic recovery, for example, along with supply line disruption (also a pandemic/post pandemic thing), shortages, and OPEC playing games with petroleum production and pricing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9954 "2022-10-22T01:08:32Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > But realistically, the protestors arguing against intervention in Ukraine most likely don’t care about the politics or people of Ukraine. They want cheap energy. Then they are fucking stupid and shortsighted. Because while they might get cheaper energy this winter, they’ll trade that off against Russian aggression against their own countries for a generation. Idiots, the lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9955 "2022-10-22T01:09:34Z")
Kid returns from his first hunting trip and shows his dad what he bagged. > The Kadyrovites fighting in Ukraine are notorious for making fake battle videos in which they fire lots of rounds at empty buildings, earning them the moniker “The TikTok Army”, so one can’t be certain that these are actual Ukrainian prisoners and not Chechens hamming it up. It’s still f\*cked up on many levels. Kadyrov is like someone from medieval times. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9956 "2022-10-22T03:08:44Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > one can’t be certain that these are actual Ukrainian prisoners and not Chechens hamming it up The fact that the prisoners heads are down for the entire video makes me think it is staged. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9957 "2022-10-22T04:10:53Z")
Putin’s foreign secretary was laughing at Liz Truss today. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9958 "2022-10-22T04:19:31Z")
So was Medvedev. Elon Musk chimed in. > Bakhmut is the only place the Russians have had slight success in the last few days, so the inference would be that Musk is either leaning pro-Russia or that he’s clueless about what’s happening in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9959 "2022-10-22T05:28:27Z")
Why can’t it be both? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9960 "2022-10-22T06:08:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Bakhmut is the only place the Russians have had slight success in the last few days, so the inference would be that Musk is either leaning pro-Russia or that he’s clueless about what’s happening in Ukraine. The Russians have been bashing their heads on the brick wall of Bakhmut for months. They’ve dumped tons of resources into the assault for almost no gains while losing big chunks of Kharkiv and Kherson Oblasts. Elon is a complete tool, but in this case he’s trolling Medvedev. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9961 "2022-10-22T07:14:47Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > So was Medvedev. Elon Musk chimed in. It doesn’t look a compliment at all. And to suggest he supports Russia doesn’t make sense since he’s thrown hundreds of millions into communication support for Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9962 "2022-10-22T10:11:07Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The Russians have been bashing their heads on the brick wall of Bakhmut for months. They’ve dumped tons of resources into the assault for almost no gains while losing big chunks of Kharkiv and Kherson Oblasts. Elon is a complete tool, but in this case he’s trolling Medvedev. Bakhmut would have been a great troll up until the last week or two, when the Russians have been making some slight gains. > [@](#): > > Almost eight months on from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, its forces are struggling while Ukraine has advanced and regained territory in the east and south. In the eastern Donbas region, the city of Bakhmut remains a Russian target, however, and its troops are making progress. > > … > > In Bakhmut, Russia is desperately trying to change the narrative of this war. It’s one of the few places where it is not in retreat. Its advances here have been slow and costly, but Russian forces have been gaining ground. > **[Bakhmut: The Ukrainian city where Russia is still advancing](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63261600)** > > In the city of Bakhmut in the east, Russia continues to seize ground as it loses it elsewhere. > [@Magiver](#): > > It doesn’t look a compliment at all. And to suggest he supports Russia doesn’t make sense since he’s thrown hundreds of millions into communication support for Ukraine. Did you miss the controversy about Musk’s recent Twitter solution for solving the Ukraine conflict? > [@](#): > > It’s very clear that Elon Musk is transmitting a message for Putin. There was a conference in Aspen in late September when Musk offered a version of what was in his tweet — including the recognition of Crimea as Russian because it’s been mostly Russian since the 1780s — and the suggestion that the Ukrainian regions of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia should be up for negotiation, because there should be guaranteed water supplies to Crimea. He made this suggestion before Putin’s annexation of those two territories on September 30. It was a very specific reference. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia essentially control all the water supplies to Crimea. Crimea is a dry peninsula. It has aquifers, but it doesn’t have rivers. It’s dependent on water from the Dnipro River that flows through a canal from Kherson. It’s unlikely Elon Musk knows about this himself. The reference to water is so specific that this clearly is a message from Putin. > > Now, there are several reasons why Musk’s intervention is interesting and significant. First of all, Putin does this frequently. He uses prominent people as intermediaries to feel out the general political environment, to basically test how people are going to react to ideas. Henry Kissinger, for example, has had interactions with Putin directly and relayed messages. Putin often uses various trusted intermediaries including all kinds of businesspeople. I had intermediaries sent to discuss things with me while I was in government. > > This is a classic Putin play. It’s just fascinating, of course, that it’s Elon Musk in this instance, because obviously Elon Musk has a huge Twitter following. He’s got a longstanding reputation in Russia through Tesla, the SpaceX space programs and also through Starlink. He’s one of the most popular men in opinion polls in Russia. At the same time, he’s played a very important part in supporting Ukraine by providing Starlink internet systems to Ukraine, and kept telecommunications going in Ukraine, paid for in part by the U.S. government. Elon Musk has enormous leverage as well as incredible prominence. Putin plays the egos of big men, gives them a sense that they can play a role. But in reality, they’re just direct transmitters of messages from Vladimir Putin. > **[Fiona Hill: ‘Elon Musk Is Transmitting a Message for Putin’](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/10/17/fiona-hill-putin-war-00061894)** > > Eight months into Russia’s war against Ukraine, POLITICO talks to the Russia analyst about whether Putin’s aims are evolving and what it would take to end the war. ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9963 "2022-10-22T11:25:18Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > Yes, but wouldn’t destroying the dam and by extension the reservoir, also remove the canal’s source of water? ISW’s October 21, 2022 summary is unusually forceful: Any claims that Russian forces would not blow the dam due to concerns for the water supply to Crimea are absurd. Crimea survived without access to the canal flowing from the Dnipro since Russia illegally invaded and annexed it in 2014… ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9964 "2022-10-22T12:47:55Z")
Not saying they wouldn’t do it, was just questioning the idea that destroying the dam would somehow help Russians with the water situation on Crimea. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9965 "2022-10-22T13:34:21Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Bakhmut is the only place the Russians have had slight success in the last few days, so the inference would be that Musk is either leaning pro-Russia or that he’s clueless about what’s happening in Ukraine. I think you are reading this wrongly … BAKHMUT stands for **“_The Russian Army is trying for 3 months no to take an insignificant village in Ukr. - and can’t_”** … so I am pretty confident that was a burn. . While on topic bakhmut: relevant tweet [https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1583750642329612288?cxt=HHwWgMDTja60zvorAAAA](https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1583750642329612288?cxt=HHwWgMDTja60zvorAAAA) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9966 "2022-10-22T13:44:34Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > I think you are reading this wrongly … BAKHMUT stands for **“_The Russian Army is trying for 3 months no to take an insignificant village in Ukr. - and can’t_”** … so I am pretty confident that was a burn. If it was an attempted burn, it was a failed one. Musk picked the one place in Ukraine that Russia are making progress. In the last week or so they have entered the city. Compare last month’s map with the most recent one: [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FceYJKUWYAMekxO?format=jpg&name=medium) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FceYJKUWYAMekxO?format=jpg&name=medium) [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfpoGEXaUAA7n07?format=jpg&name=900x900) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfpoGEXaUAA7n07?format=jpg&name=900x900) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9967 "2022-10-22T13:50:39Z")
**Modnote** : A week later and 1 mention of **Musk** hijacks the thread again. # TO ALL, no more MUSK talk in this thread. It appears to be an automatic hijack. > [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24/960037/9751): > > Modnote: AGAIN, DROP THE MUSK CRAP. NOW IN ITS OWN THREAD. I will hand out warnings going forward. > [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24/960037/9666): > > Modnote: please take further Musk discussion to a new thread or at least drop it here in the Breaking News thread. > [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24/960037/9672): > > Stronger Modnote, you want to argue over Starlink/Musk, just start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9968 "2022-10-22T20:40:01Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Pre-invasion, and especially if you go back to pre-2014, Ukraine was divided politically. A lot of the population was pro-Russia,… I doubt this. The Ukrainians I know pretty much all despised Russia, due to the Genocide by Stalin, etc. Got a unbiased cite? > [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > But realistically, the protestors arguing against intervention in Ukraine most likely don’t care about the politics or people of Ukraine. Other posters have shown this is not happening to any extent. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9969 "2022-10-22T20:51:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I doubt this. The Ukrainians I know pretty much all despised Russia, due to the Genocide by Stalin, etc. Got a unbiased cite? More accurately, perhaps, is that there were a fair amount of people who lived in Eastern Ukraine who had Russian sympathies but most of them were immigrants from Russia or first generation. Western Ukraine was always very anti-Russia. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9970 "2022-10-22T20:56:15Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > More accurately, perhaps, is that there were a fair amount of people who lived in Eastern Ukraine who had Russian sympathies but most of them were immigrants from Russia or first generation. Western Ukraine was always very anti-Russia. Yes, that is better. During the 30’s Stalin committed genocide vs the Ukrainian people , aka the “holodomor”, killing millions of Ukrainians and then moving in ethnic Russians. Those ethnic Russians are there due to genocide. > **[Holodomor](https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor)** > > Teaser here ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2022, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9971 "2022-10-22T22:01:33Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > More accurately, perhaps, is that there were a fair amount of people who lived in Eastern Ukraine who had Russian sympathies but most of them were immigrants from Russia or first generation. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png) ETA: This is also relevant (poll done in 2014 just pre-separatist war): > **[2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine | Public opinion in Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine#Public_opinion_in_Ukraine)** > > A poll conducted by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) from 8–18 February 2014 assessed support for union with Russia throughout Ukraine. It found that, overall, 12% of those polled favoured union with Russia. 68.0% said that Ukraine should remain independent and maintain friendly relations with Russia. > Support for a union between Russia and Ukraine was found to be much higher in certain oblasts: > 1.41.0% Crimea | > 2.33.2% Donetsk Oblast | > 3.24.1% Luhansk Oblast | > 4.24.0% Odesa O... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=493) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=495)