# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1381 "2022-03-06T19:00:40Z")
This is hopeful: > American officials on Sunday identified three areas on which the United States could soon take action in an attempt to address Russia’s intensifying war in Ukraine: a ban on Russian oil imports, a declaration of war crimes against Russia and help facilitating delivery of Polish fighter jets to Ukraine. > [https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/us-officials-action-ukraine/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/us-officials-action-ukraine/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1382 "2022-03-06T19:06:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I think that much earlier in this thread there was a discussion about what Putin’s war goal was, at least in the beginning. > > I came across a series of news articles in Tass, dated February 25, 2022, with a quotation from “retired military expert Colonel Nikolay Shulgin”. Given the context, it might have been a semi-official explanation: > > > [@](#): > > > > “For Russia, it is extremely important to liberate not only Donbass from the occupying forces of the Kiev regime, but also the entire left bank of Ukraine, as well as its Black Sea regions. Dnepr, Zaporozhye, Mariupol, Odessa, Ochakov, Nikolaev, Kherson, and other cities that have industrial and defense enterprises essential to the Russian Federation. If they are controlled by Moscow, this means that Russia has defeated the West and taken its Slavic partner out of the sphere of influence of the United States and NATO,” retired military expert Colonel Nikolay Shulgin told Nezavisimaya Gazeta. > > [https://tass.com/pressreview/1410663](https://tass.com/pressreview/1410663) There’s a Daily Beast article upthread (link to that article: [Russian State TV Just Blew Up Putin’s ‘Nazi Ukraine’ Bullshit](https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-state-tv-just-blew-up-putins-nazi-ukraine-bullshit)) that pretty much directly says what Putin wants - someone got a little too loose-lipped on Russian state TV: > As to the Kremlin’s aims in Ukraine, Kartapolov explained them in detail: “Our position is clear and transparent, including during these negotiations. The essence is as follows: Ukraine will recognize Crimea as the Russian Federation, as well as DPR/LPR [‘Donetsk People’s Republic’ and ‘Luhansk People’s Republic’] within their administrative borders. Ukraine will change its social and state system and become a neutral, demilitarized country. That’s it.” The author of the article then says this: > The banter revealed Putin’s apparent strategy in Ukraine: destroy Ukraine’s infrastructure and cause widespread desperation with a brutal military assault, which would then compel the Ukrainian government to concede to Putin’s terms and leave their positions or face a violent removal by force. It’s a land grab of Eastern Ukraine, followed by the transformation of the rest of the country into a powerless vassal state, controlled and headed by Putin’s puppets. To break Ukraine’s resolve, the Kremlin likely intends to replicate the brutality it demonstrated in Syria and Chechnya. This dovetails nicely with what I’ve read from Fiona Hill - she thinks Putin most likely wants to essentially wipe Ukraine off the map; more or less subsume Crimea and the eastern part of Ukraine into Russia and then set up a puppet state in the Western part that will go along his wishes. This provides a buffer between the rest of Russia and NATO countries. Moldova could be the next step. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1383 "2022-03-06T19:08:06Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > So much so that he ultimately abandoned his homeland and took up residence in the US, where he not only continued writing but became successful on Broadway, collaborating with the likes of Jerome Kern, as well as in Hollywood. That’s true, but he’d been involved in Broadway much earlier, and wrote the original book for _Anything Goes!_, along with Guy Bolton: > **[P. G. Wodehouse | Broadway: 1915–1919](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._G._Wodehouse#Broadway:_1915%E2%80%931919)** > > A third milestone in Wodehouse's life came towards the end of 1915: his old songwriting partner Jerome Kern introduced him to the writer Guy Bolton, who became Wodehouse's closest friend and a regular collaborator. Bolton and Kern had a musical, Very Good Eddie, running at the Princess Theatre in New York. The show was successful, but they thought the song lyrics weak and invited Wodehouse to join them on its successor. This was Miss Springtime (1916), which ran for 227 performances—a good run by... ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1384 "2022-03-06T19:08:19Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The famous KBM plant in Tula and other factories controlled by longtime Putin allies the Rothenberg brothers are unable to physically fulfil orders for infantry weapons and ammunition. Wait… So they accepted payment on the weapons, said the weapons existed, and now they can’t be found so they can’t deliver the weapons they (said they) made? Sound like something the Mafia would do. Or a kleptocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1385 "2022-03-06T19:10:28Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Until that Russian soldier gets repatriated to Putin’s Russia. “Here’s the deal Russian soldier: You can ask for asylum and stay here in the west, or you can return to a Russia that has collapse economically, and where “fast food” now means that the lineup for your 2 potato ration was only 2 hours long.” ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1386 "2022-03-06T19:12:13Z")
Excellent! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1387 "2022-03-06T19:15:03Z")
That’s assuming Ukraine is succesful, and Russia doesn’t insist on repatriation of all Russian soldiers. That’s a lot of “Ifs” to protect a soldier’s life from government retaliation, and is why it’s a general rule that soldiers can’t be used for propaganda. Their lives can be endangered by it, especially in chaotic post-war conditions where other soldiers of the same army may have a grudge, not just the government. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1388 "2022-03-06T19:17:44Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Wait… So they accepted payment on the weapons, said the weapons existed, and now they can’t be found so they can’t deliver the weapons they (said they) made? Sound like something the Mafia would do. Or a kleptocracy. The money for all those fancy yachts and mansions has to come from somewhere! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1389 "2022-03-06T19:18:13Z")
Interesting mention on those Kalibr missiles. The NYT just published this item in their live blog: > A Russian cruise missile attack struck an airport in western Ukraine, some 100 miles from the capital, Kyiv, on Sunday. Videos verified by The New York Times, some of which were first confirmed by the [Centre for Information Resilience](https://twitter.com/Cen4infoRes/status/1500488064443072512), based in London, show what are likely land attack Kalibr cruise missiles flying toward Vinnytsia Airport. It’s unclear if the videos show the same missile or multiple ones. > The airport in central Ukraine is mainly used for civilian operations but includes an area for military usage. The missiles hit both civilian and military infrastructure, according to an analysis by The Times. > One video shows a missile flying over a cemetery located less than three miles from the airport. The missile is coming from the south, the direction of the Black Sea. Kalibr cruise missiles are normally launched from ships or submarines, and some variants have [a range of more than 1,000 miles](https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/ss-n-30a/). > Several videos also show large fires and a collapsed building at the airport. Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, [said](https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1500472014452273157) that eight missiles had “completely destroyed the airport,” but that number could not be independently verified. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1390 "2022-03-06T19:25:17Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > Interesting mention on those Kalibr missiles. They may still have a fair number of missiles deployed tactically, but if they have no strategic reserves they can’t replace them. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1391 "2022-03-06T19:27:03Z")
I find it interesting that they are using them if so. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1392 "2022-03-06T19:34:38Z")
Trying to destroy as much Ukraine infrastructure as possible before they lack the capability of doing so… That, and they’re probably now worried about NATO or other re-supply through this regional airport. Or that airport being used as a base for NATO fighters and other planes. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1393 "2022-03-06T19:36:22Z")
Commanders have probably been told to do something… anything… to show some positive results. The whole Russian military is so corrupt and inefficient that mid-level commanders may not even know they are short of cruise missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1394 "2022-03-06T19:43:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Trying to destroy as much Ukraine infrastructure as possible before they lack the capability of doing so… It really complicates trying to untangle Russian goals. If conquest and annexation of Ukraine is the aim, wrecking infrastructure is a bad bet. If it is reducing Ukraine to a poor dependency with a puppet government, it potentially makes more sense. Though even then there all sorts of negative unintended consequences - Russia is still a neighbor and knock-on effects can be real. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1395 "2022-03-06T19:47:42Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > It really complicates trying to untangle Russian goals. You’re assuming that everything they do has to be logical and make sense… an unwarranted assumption. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1396 "2022-03-06T19:51:22Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > many of the Russian soldiers are penal conscripts I listened to _The Penal Conscripts_ before it was cool. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Al128](#): > > > > I am getting Nicolaí Ceausescu flashbacks > > I imagine that’s the case that worries Putin and Lukashenko the most. > > December 21, 1989: Ceausescu makes speech to large public group to calm the masses. > > December 25, 1989: Ceausescu and wife shot by firing squad. December 26, 1989: Happy Boxing Day! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1397 "2022-03-06T19:54:05Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > You’re assuming that everything they do has to be logical and make sense… an unwarranted assumption. 😀 Fair point 😉 . ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1398 "2022-03-06T19:55:36Z")
I’m picturing a series of images of Mussolini, Ceausescu, and Khadaffi meething their ends followed by a picture of Putin labelled, “Watch This Space”. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1399 "2022-03-06T19:56:02Z")
Petraeus knows his stuff. CIA and extensive military experience. I like his assessment of Ukraine. Size matters. Imagine trying to occupy a 320 sq mile city. I know shelling is inflicting heavy damage. It’s going to be a bloody war. Reports that Russia has limited supplies of rockets and fuel is encouraging. The Guardian blog > [@](#): > > **Retired army general David Petraeus, former head of US central command during the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, said he did not accept military assumptions that Kyiv will inevitably fall to [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia).** > > Russian forces have a [40-mile-long convoy](https://viewer.gutools.co.uk/world/2022/mar/03/concern-mounting-huge-russian-military-convoy-outside-kyiv-ukraine) of military vehicles stalled on the approach to the Ukrainian capital and Petraeus said it appeared “they cannot keep their columns fueled” and praised Ukrainian resilience so far. > > “They’ve taken down road signs or pointed “Welcome to Hell” and stuff like that,” Petraeus, who is also former director of the CIA, told CNN: > > > This is going to be a very long fight in Kyiv. The locals there have been stockpiling food, there is going to be an enormously fierce resistance. I don’t accept assumptions that it will fall.” > > Petraeus also noted Kyiv’s extensive surface area as a major obstacle for the Russian military, pointing out that the capital is spread across around 320 square miles, larger than New York City and a little over half the size of London’s sprawl. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1400 "2022-03-06T20:19:43Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > You’re probably right and I hope you are. Last time gas hit $4 around here (2008 IIRC) I remember lots of talk about the death of the gas guzzler, but there weren’t nearly as many electric options as there are now. My memory might also be off, but I remember that being around 2004 / 2005, with the high prices being attributed to the Iraq war. > [@XT](#): > > Who would sell them a lot of fuel bowsers and logistics supply trucks quickly at this stage? North Korea? One of the Stans? It would be ironic if Russia was reduced to receiving support from those types of countries. > [@echoreply](#): > > - Russia is trying to find evidence that Ukraine was working on nuclear weapons or dirty bombs to justify the invasion — this goes a long way towards explaining the interest in Chernobyl and the other nuclear plant > - dropping a nuke or two on Ukraine is possible > - why do you think the Russian nuclear stockpile is in any better shape than the rest of their military equipment? As to the last question, they don’t have to be in great shape. Even a small percentage that still work would be a disaster for the whole world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=71)