# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1441 "2022-03-07T03:37:12Z")
What’s the point? Does anyone believe Putin gives a rip about the World Court? > [@](#): > > ## Ukraine and Russia to face off at World Court over genocide claim > > **Ukraine will ask the United Nations** ’ top court on Monday to **issue an emergency ruling requiring [Russia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/russia) to stop its invasion** , arguing that Moscow’s justification for the attack is based on a faulty interpretation of genocide law, Reuters reports. > Although the court’s rulings are binding and countries generally follow them, it has no direct means of enforcing them. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1442 "2022-03-07T03:41:09Z")
tl;dr version of this article: the rate of weapons shipments to Ukraine has accelerated, an effort involving 14 countries and coordinated by the US European Command (EUCOM). The Ukrainian forces have been impressive in how effectively they’ve been using them. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/mark-milley-ukraine-military-assistance/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/mark-milley-ukraine-military-assistance/index.html) > [@aceplace57](#): > > What’s the point? Does anyone believe Putin gives a rip about the World Court? The point, as with the International Criminal Court, and the US push to establish that Russian forces have committed war crimes, is that it becomes much more difficult for other countries to pretend to be neutral. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1443 "2022-03-07T03:46:41Z")
Ok, I see the logic in establishing the basis for a War Crimes case in the courts. Thanks The shipments of weapons is making a big difference. I think we’re sharing satellite intel. The Ukraine commanders know exactly where Russian troops,aircraft, and supplies are positioned. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1444 "2022-03-07T04:23:03Z")
This guy brings up a number of valid points, but his pious and pompous delivery undercuts his credibility. When he claimed that “global white supremacy” applies to “the major powers, those that have the force, those who have the economic power to shape the world”, he lost me decisively. This may indeed have been true in earlier eras, but China changed things, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1445 "2022-03-07T04:24:28Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One thing I think…. Absent a large nuclear arsenal, from what we’ve seen of Russia’s army so far…. NATO would be knocking on Moscows door today If the video of the prisoners is true then Putin pulled police officers from around the country for “training” in Belarus and used them in place of actual troops. It sounds as if the plan was to walk in and do crowd control. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1446 "2022-03-07T04:31:31Z")
Trading MiGs for F16’s is a big win for Poland and Ukraine. The deal helps NATO by strengthening a vulnerable member. I hope the deal goes through. There probably won’t be a public announcement that Ukraine received jets. No one wants to antagonize Russia. They’ll certainly know about it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1447 "2022-03-07T04:48:05Z")
How hard would it be for the USAF to simply station some extra fighters in Poland to help guard Polish skies until their new F-35s arrive in 2024-2030? Unless the Poles consider that unsatisfactory? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1448 "2022-03-07T05:03:07Z")
Poland’s F-16s are already most of their fighter force. Handing some MiG-29s to Ukraine doesn’t degrade Poland’s air defences that much, especially with Russia being preoccupied in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1449 "2022-03-07T06:14:26Z")
Your negative assessment of the situation is no better than a guess. So far the Russians haven’t gotten close to getting their shit together, logistically speaking (which would be necessary to surround a huge city like Kyiv). Maybe they will, but we don’t have any real evidence of that right now. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1450 "2022-03-07T06:31:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The accuracy of such weapons is not perfect, and Russia does have substantial and high quality AAA and interceptors. Based on the past week or so, I don’t think we can say the Russians have high-quality _anything_. Why would those AAA batteries and interceptors be any better maintained, their crews any better trained and motivated, than what we’ve seen of the rest of the Russian military? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1451 "2022-03-07T06:35:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Russians are much likelier to surround Kyiv and blast/starve it out. Kyiv extends over an area of 320 square miles, on both sides of the Dnieper River. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Kyiv%2C_Ukraine_ESA22370890_%28cropped%29.jpeg/480px-Kyiv%2C_Ukraine_ESA22370890_%28cropped%29.jpeg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Kyiv%2C_Ukraine_ESA22370890_%28cropped%29.jpeg/480px-Kyiv%2C_Ukraine_ESA22370890_%28cropped%29.jpeg) There’s absolutely no way it can be surrounded with the forces at Russia’s disposal. If Russian forces ever get to Kyiv, which is unlikely, they’ll be like the dog who caught the car and didn’t know what to do with it. They were expecting to waltz into the centre of Kyiv in a couple of days with little or no resistance, and simply take over the government. Now they have no plan except bombarding. But even so… Putin is making a big deal about uniting countries with Russian culture, and Kyiv is the absolute centre and origin of Russian culture, with many, many important cultural buildings and landmarks. It would be like the West bombarding Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1452 "2022-03-07T06:51:40Z")
For a nation that touts Stalingrad so much as part of its history and legacy, you’d think the Russians would know better than anyone else the foolishness of trying to capture a huge urban center that hates you and has thoroughly prepped its defenses by the time your army arrives. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1453 "2022-03-07T07:13:25Z")
Documentary: _Magnificent Kiev - The mother of all cities in the Russian Empire_ [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TXa1i7JKFac/maxresdefault.jpg "Magnificent Kiev - The mother of all cities in the Russian Empire") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXa1i7JKFac) ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1454 "2022-03-07T07:22:01Z")
[https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kyiv-shrines-memorials-powerful-symbolic-risk-83224208](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kyiv-shrines-memorials-powerful-symbolic-risk-83224208) > “We’re talking about a very old city,” said Jacob Lassin, a postdoctoral research scholar at the Arizona State University’s Melikian Center for Russian, Eurasian, and East European Studies. “The center part is densely packed. Even if you’re trying to hit one thing, you could easily hit something else.” > > The symbolic value of the shrines is powerful even to people who don’t share the religious faith they commemorate. > The symbols matter not only to the Ukrainian people but to Putin, too. > > Whether Kyiv’s Orthodox shrines come under direct attack or receive collateral damage, such an action would be a “total refutation” of another of Putin’s claims — to be defending Orthodox Ukrainians loyal to Moscow’s patriarch, Lassin said. > > “It would literally be destroying the main seat of Russian Orthodoxy according to his own rhetoric,” Lassin said. > > The shrines’ oldest parts date back to the medieval Kievan Rus kingdom, soon after its adoption of Christianity under Prince Vladimir in the 10th century. Putin has claimed the kingdom is the common ancestor of today’s Russia and Ukraine. Ukrainians counter that theirs is a distinct nation now under fratricidal attack from its Slavic neighbor. > > The cathedral and nearby monastic complex represent “a masterpiece of human creative genius in both its architectural conception and its remarkable decoration,” says a summary by UNESCO, which lists them as World Heritage Sites. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1455 "2022-03-07T07:59:17Z")
A good one that gives an idea of the size and beauty of the city: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/cb5gJdaQVAo/maxresdefault.jpg "Share Kyiv - Drone Tour / Поділись містом Киевом") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb5gJdaQVAo) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1456 "2022-03-07T09:37:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I ask because so far, all the appeals about “war crimes” and human-rights abuses or death of civilians or “humanitarian” has largely fallen on deaf ears with US/NATO leadership, due to fear of a nuclear WW3, but I’m guessing there is still a certain trigger point at which the threshold would be considered to be crossed. Would non-nuclear WMDs suffice? That’s a wild card in many ways. In the past chemical weapon use hasn’t always triggered Western intervention (see Syria, among others). If it’s just withing Ukrainian borders I’m thinking not. If it slops over into NATO territory maybe. > [@XT](#): > > It would certainly trigger a very harsh reply on the sanction side, similar to what would happen if they exploded a nuke. We’re running out of “very harsh sanctions” already. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One thing I think…. Absent a large nuclear arsenal, from what we’ve seen of Russia’s army so far…. NATO would be knocking on Moscows door today ^ This - and Putin knows it. Hence the saber-rattling. > [@Velocity](#): > > If it weren’t for the threat of nukes, NATO would wipe out the Russian army in Ukraine in half a day, and that’s not an exaggeration. ^ This (allowing for some hyperbole) - and Putin knows it. Hence the saber-rattling. > [@RickJay](#): > > The Russians are much likelier to surround Kyiv and blast/starve it out. I think this is the case. However, it takes a long time to siege a city - sometimes years. It gets really hellish inside those cities, but this is not something that can be wrapped up in a month. And that’s after you actually surround a city - Kyiv covers a large land area, it’s no small thing to actually surround it enough to put it under siege. > [@Velocity](#): > > For a nation that touts Stalingrad so much as part of its history and legacy, you’d think the Russians would know better than anyone else the foolishness of trying to capture a huge urban center that hates you and has thoroughly prepped its defenses by the time your army arrives ^ This. Although the Russians also know about the Mud Season and have used it themselves against invaders, yet this spring they seem to have forgotten all about it. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Putin is making a big deal about uniting countries with Russian culture, and Kyiv is the absolute centre and origin of Russian culture, with many, many important cultural buildings and landmarks. Well… it did. How many of those buildings and landmarks are still standing today? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1457 "2022-03-07T10:14:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well… it did. How many of those buildings and landmarks are still standing today? Um… all of them. Kyiv hasn’t suffered any war damage. Did you watch the videos? I don’t know what kind of idea you have of Kyiv, but I suggest you click on the drone video and watch it for a couple of minutes. There’s no city in America, and few in Europe that can match it for beauty and historical interest. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1458 "2022-03-07T10:24:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Russians are much likelier to surround Kyiv and blast/starve it out. I agree, and being very cynic in describing what will (?) happen, starving them also has the advantage that there is no sudden EVENT (that could trigger opponent’s actions), but rather a longer, drawn out PROCESS that also “plays” the [\*\* SUNK COST FALLACY \*\*](https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy) on NATO side. Extra cynical browny points if the let initially pass food transports, but make it later ever more difficult, again playing the SunkCostF. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1459 "2022-03-07T10:31:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Ten B-1 bombers carrying hundreds? …Russian armor/convoys would be nonexistent in Ukraine by the end of the day. Ukrainian tractor drivers hate the B-1. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2022, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1460 "2022-03-07T10:45:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your negative assessment of the situation is no better than a guess. So far the Russians haven’t gotten close to getting their shit together, logistically speaking (which would be necessary to surround a huge city like Kyiv). Maybe they will, but we don’t have any real evidence of that right now. also, the .ru army will - by then - NOT have ground up the Ukr. army … the ukr. might have to sidestep a bit, but their doctrine of attacking and destroying the supply lines (and getting weaponry for free) seems very efficient (as opposed to be worn down by fighting the attack force (which is also happening) so you might eventually wind up with a besieged city, where the besieging forces might (also?) get starved - with the potential of a Stalingrad moment, really At this stage I really get the feeling that the russians have not sorted out the CRAWL - WALK - RUN sequence … (being crawl obv. having your supply shit in order) … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=74)