# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [February 24, 2022, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037 "2022-02-24T08:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1601 "2022-03-08T14:42:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If the war is ended on these terms, Russia won’t get any immediate gains from this invasion; all it will have is what it started with. “Permanent neutrality” and demilitarization (which they also demanded) is a huge gain, since it’d make the 2028 invasion so much easier. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The first Russian general to be killed (less than a week ago), Andrei Sukhovetsky, was from the same army group outside Kharkiv. Presumably Gerasimov was his replacement. Apparently not. Gerasimov is noted in the article as being chief of staff - not even the commander - of the 41st Army. Sukhovetsky was apparently deputy chief, so if that report is correct, he was Gerasimov’s subordinate. An army (in the sense of a military formation made of two or more corps) is a big organization and has many generals. I have a grudging respect for a general who gets killed in battle. If nothing else is true, they were willing to be near the action with their men, not just in the rear with the gear. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1602 "2022-03-08T14:54:09Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Everything they’ve done since has pushed Ukraine towards NATO and the European Union Putin keeps talking about NATO moving east when in reality Russia’s actions are pushing his buffer states west – is NATO supposed to spurn those inquiries? Ukraine first applied for NATO membership back in 1992 but was desultory about following up, running hot and cold as the leadership changed, until 2014 after Crimea’s annexation and the loss of the south-east regions. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1603 "2022-03-08T15:08:42Z")
Imho Russia won’t ever give up Crimea. They’ve put too much infrastructure and immigration into it. A lot has changed in 8 years. They’ll do the same thing in Donetsk and Luhansk. Ethnic Ukrainians will be driven out and Russians move in. There won’t be a Ukrainian region to reclaim. [Crimea: Six years after illegal annexation | Brookings](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/03/17/crimea-six-years-after-illegal-annexation/) > [@](#): > > Crimea has undergone significant changes over the past six years. A large number of ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars — some put the total at 140,000 — have left the peninsula since 2014. Crimean Tatars complain of intimidation and oppression as one reason for moving. During the same period, some 250,000 people have moved from Russia to Crimea (Crimean Tatar leaders claim the influx is much larger). The inflow has included troops and sailors, as the Kremlin has bolstered the Russian military presence on the peninsula, deploying new submarines, surface combatants and combat aircraft among other things. > > The economic picture is mixed. Trying to create a success story, Moscow has poured in more than $10 billion in direct subsidies as well as funding major construction and infrastructure projects, such as the highway and railroad bridges that now cross the Kerch Strait to link Crimea directly to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1604 "2022-03-08T15:09:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m shocked at the complete brutality of this war. The Russians seem determined to make targeting civilians their main goal. [Chechnya](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/world/europe/photos-chechen-war-russia.html). [Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War). Bombing of civilian / urban targets is part of Russian military doctrine. Saves troops from the meatgrinder of urban combat, breaks civilian morale. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1605 "2022-03-08T15:16:22Z")
From Putin to Ivan the Terrible, not much has changed. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1606 "2022-03-08T15:25:57Z")
An awful and weirdly ironic thing about this situation is that had the invasion been somehow prevented, the world would not know just how evil and vicious Putin is. There’s no real, actual point to this statement btw, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1607 "2022-03-08T15:27:35Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > An awful and weirdly ironic thing about this situation is that had the invasion been somehow prevented, the world would not know just how evil and vicious Putin is. I cannot speak for the world, of course, but I’ve felt that I’ve known this for decades. Nothing that the Russian forces have done in the past few weeks has surprised me, given what I feel I know about Putin’s ruthlessness, and his desire to re-establish Russia as a global power. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1608 "2022-03-08T15:43:54Z")
I agree that in retrospect (IMHO) that there is absolutely nothing surprising about this. However, also IMHO, though the invasion of Ukraine is not surprising, and is on a continuum with Russian actions over the past decades, there is something about the brazenness and “this is so WW II-ishness and would never happen in 21st first world countries” (if you know what I mean) that changes everything, even though the everything should have changed decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1609 "2022-03-08T15:52:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m shocked at the complete brutality of this war. Here’s a horrible video, and an even worse one just below showing the aftermath. An elderly couple in a civilian car stop by the side of road when they see a Russian tank in the distance. Open country and broad daylight. The tank cold-bloodedly fires at them repeatedly, destroying the car and killing them both. > > > KT "Special CIA Operation" @KremlinTrolls ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1610 "2022-03-08T15:57:26Z")
First principle of combat: if it moves, paint it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1611 "2022-03-08T16:26:47Z")
One example of growing dissent in Russia. It’s a small start. Reminds me of the beginnings of the US anti-war movement in the 60’s. [‘They were sent as cannon fodder’: Siberian governor confronted by relatives of Russian unit | Ukraine | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/they-were-sent-as-cannon-fodder-siberian-governor-confronted-by-relatives-of-russian-unit) > [@](#): > > The footage, first [posted by Radio Free Europe (RFE)](https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-soldiers-ukraine-cannon-fodder-governor/31739187.html) on Monday, showed a fiery exchange between Sergei Tsivilyov, the governor of the Kemerovo region, and people in the city of Novokuznetsk. > > “They lied to everyone, they deceived everyone … Why did you send them there?” one woman asks Tsivilyov, saying that the soldiers thought they were going for military drills in Belarus. > > “They didn’t know their objective … They were sent as cannon fodder,” the woman adds. > > The governor would not have been responsible for the decision to deploy the unit, which would have been made by the country’s national guard, a separate internal military force directly subordinated to the president, Vladimir Putin. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1612 "2022-03-08T16:37:29Z")
perhaps this belongs in the Omnibus Stupid MFers thread > **[Russia calls for return to 'peaceful co-existence' with U.S. like during Cold...](https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-calls-return-peaceful-co-existence-with-us-like-during-cold-war-interfax-2022-03-08/)** > > Russia and the United States should return to the principle of "peaceful co-existence" like during the Cold War, the Interfax news agency cited the Russian foreign ministry as saying on Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1613 "2022-03-08T16:44:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m shocked at the complete brutality of this war. The Russians seem determined to make targeting civilians their main goal. If that was their main goal they’d have killed a lot more civilians than they have. Their bombardment of cities has been fairly limited as compared to their capabilities. They crushed Aleppo and Grozny with far more brutality. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1614 "2022-03-08T16:52:57Z")
I am still hoping for Article 5… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1615 "2022-03-08T16:58:55Z")
I don’t know anything about Aleppo nor Grozny so I’ll just say that we would need to rule out the protective qualities of the relevant cities (i.e. the presence or lack of bomb shelters, how deep/reinforced they are, the material strength of the buildings, how close artillery was able to set up to the middle of the city, etc.) before we could establish that the difference is down to how the attackers are behaving. I know that Kyiv has bomb shelters and a vast perimeter. If Aleppo didn’t then we would expect a different result, independent of what the Russians were doing. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1616 "2022-03-08T16:59:50Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Nothing that the Russian forces have done in the past few weeks has surprised me, given what I feel I know about Putin’s ruthlessness, and his desire to re-establish Russia as a global power. Before this, however, I thought Putin had a good grasp both of the capabilities of his forces, and of the likely reaction of the rest of the planet; combined with a sane (if evil) unwillingness to bite off more than he could chew at any given moment. It turns out that he’s seriously lacking in one or more of those areas. He may eventually yet get this mouthful swallowed; but even if so, it’s going to make him very sick for quite a long time to come. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1617 "2022-03-08T17:26:30Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > > Wait… So they accepted payment on the weapons, said the weapons existed, and now they can’t be found so they can’t deliver the weapons they (said they) made? Sound like something the Mafia would do. Or a kleptocracy. > > The money for all those fancy yachts and mansions has to come from somewhere! 🙂 [From here](https://www.yahoo.com/news/russias-military-stumbles-adversaries-note-123420763.html) [emphasis mine]: > “The Kremlin spent the last 20 years trying to modernize its military,” said Andrei V. Kozyrev, the foreign minister for Russia under Boris Yeltsin, in a post on Twitter. “ **Much of that budget was stolen and spent on mega-yachts in Cyprus.** But as a military advisor you cannot report that to the President. So they reported lies to him instead. Potemkin military.” I had to google ‘Potemkin military’. I found ’ The “Potemkin” term is taken from Grigory Aleksandrovich Potemkin, the governor of New Russia who is said to have constructed fake settlements to impress Catherine the Great during her 1787 journey to [inspect](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/slavic-review/article/abs/garden-of-the-empire-catherines-appropriation-of-the-crimea/904AFC344E67038EDE16F00C0F55E1D6) the newly acquired Crimea and surrounding territories.’ ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1618 "2022-03-08T17:59:55Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Apparently, the Kremlin has a list of countries that have been “unfriendly” towards Russia, including: …Liechtenstein… Those fucking Liechtensteineranians, always sticking their nose in, stirring up trouble. Time for some sanctions on them too. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The New York Times, quoting a Ukrainian psychologist: > > [https://twitter.com/ClaireBerlinski/status/1500886251154685954/photo/1](https://twitter.com/ClaireBerlinski/status/1500886251154685954/photo/1) Perfect solution! > [@RickJay](#): > > Note that there’s again serious talk about a NATO ally, like Poland, handing over warplanes. That’s also what you get from maximal demands - the “we can’t do that, but we can do this other thing” reaction. Last I read there were snags in that now also. > **[Proposed plan to send fighter jets to Ukraine hits logistical snag](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/proposed-plan-sending-fighter-jets-ukraine-hits-logistical-snag-rcna19083)** > > “It’s a lot easier to give hand-held weapons than it is to transfer a plane,” one source familiar with the discussions said. TLDR: Russia may see Poland as a participant in the war and the US doesn’t really have a bunch of F16s laying about to give to Poland. > [@Morgyn](#): > > Their practically brand-new, secure cryptophone system, guaranteed to work under all conditions, requires 3G/4G to communicate. Which isn’t available where they are operating because they’ve destroyed the cell phone towers. Yet another sign of lack of a plan by Russia. I’m think the only reason they have got as far as they have is sheer numbers. It seems none of their equipment works as advertised. > [@RickJay](#): > > “Permanent neutrality” and demilitarization (which they also demanded) is a huge gain, since it’d make the 2028 invasion so much easier. I agree. Ceding to these demands just gives Russia a win and allows them to take their time breaking off chunks of Ukraine. Once Ukraine has a “friendly” government and no arms, Russia will not even need an invasion to take over the rest. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > An elderly couple in a civilian car stop by the side of road when they see a Russian tank in the distance. Open country and broad daylight. The tank cold-bloodedly fires at them repeatedly, destroying the car and killing them both. And that was just for accidentally being near a supply convoy, the car had already stopped moving forward. Itchy trigger finger and a desperate need to protect supply lines is going to lead to a lot more civilian deaths. No need to watch the up close video if you don’t want to see what people look like after being shot with a 30mm cannon, you can probably imagine what it contains. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Nothing that the Russian forces have done in the past few weeks has surprised me, given what I feel I know about Putin’s ruthlessness, and his desire to re-establish Russia as a global power. So true. It’s not like we haven’t seen Russia at war with Putin at the helm. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1619 "2022-03-08T18:00:19Z")
So this guy starts a construction company, and after years of bribes, kickbacks, cutting corners, and skimming he has done pretty well for himself. But one day he visits his cousin, who is also in construction, and sees him with a mega-yacht and palaces. He asks him, “We’re in the same business, and after decades of stealing every lira/cent/leu/kopek I possibly can, I am quite rich, but nothing like this. How do you do it?” The cousin says, “Let me put it this way. You see those six bridges over there?” — “… No?” — “Exactly.” ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/1620 "2022-03-08T18:08:30Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > An awful and weirdly ironic thing about this situation is that had the invasion been somehow prevented, the world would not know just how evil and vicious Putin is. Really? > **[Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko)** > > Alexander Litvinenko was an officer of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) and its predecessor, the KGB, until he left the service and fled the country. > In 1998, Litvinenko and several other Russian intelligence officers said they had been ordered to kill Boris Berezovsky, a Russian businessman. After that, the Russian government began to persecute Litvinenko. He fled to the UK, where he criticised the Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Russian government. In exile, Litvinenko w... > **[Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal)** > > The poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, also known as the Salisbury Poisonings, was a botched assassination attempt to poison Sergei Skripal, a former Russian military officer and double agent for the British intelligence agencies in the city of Salisbury, England on 4 March 2018. Sergei and his daughter, Yulia Skripal, were poisoned by means of a Novichok nerve agent. Both spent several weeks in hospital in a critical condition, before being discharged. A police officer, Nick Bailey, The B... > **[Poisoning of Alexei Navalny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexei_Navalny)** > > On 20 August 2020, Russian opposition figure and anti-corruption activist Alexei Navalny was poisoned with a Novichok nerve agent and was hospitalized in serious condition. During a flight from Tomsk to Moscow, he became ill and was taken to a hospital in Omsk after an emergency landing there, and put in a coma. He was evacuated to the Charité hospital in Berlin, Germany, two days later. The use of the nerve agent was confirmed by five Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW)... What’s your threshold for concluding that someone is evil and vicious? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037.md?page=82)