# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 102
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2037 "2023-02-03T03:17:25Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Do we have any reliable information on the numbers of Ukrainian casualties? Nope. No more reliable than the Russian figures, possibly less. General Milley (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) in November: ["You’re looking at well over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded, Gen Milley said. “Same thing probably on the Ukrainian side.”](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63580372) In January Norway’s chief of staff suggested [~180,000 Russian casualties vs ~100,000 Ukrainians](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230122-russia-taken-180-000-dead-or-wounded-in-ukraine-norwegian-army). Safe to say whatever Ukrainian losses have actually been, they have been fairly heavy. This is a very high intensity war with Russia leaning heavily on artillery and nothing kills more men than artillery. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2038 "2023-02-03T08:27:01Z")
> **hid derailing post, WE?** > > This war has been immensely ridiculous and frustrating to watch. It’s like seeing a millionaire who could cure his cancer by taking just one $50 pill, yet keeps fretting about “the costly price of the medicine” and wants to pay on an installment plan of one dollar per month or something of that sort. Absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2039 "2023-02-03T10:30:44Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > If a soldier can no longer engage, as far as Ukraine is concerned, they are effectively dead (not part of the battle force), and if they are still breathing, that amounts to a net handicap for the Russians, as the person must be ferried away from the lines for treatment Um… no, actually, the Russians _don’t_ have to take care of their wounded. By our reckoning they should, but there’s no immutable natural law saying they must. And there are reports of Russian wounded being abandoned. It also seems clear that Russia values some soldiers over others. One way to get around the burden of removing wounded from the frontlines and treating them is to simply leave them where they lay. Cold and cruel, but entirely possible. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2040 "2023-02-03T11:43:15Z")
So, what would your “millionaire’s solution” be to this war? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2041 "2023-02-03T11:54:20Z")
> **off topic, hidden by WE?** > > Send lots more weaponry, much sooner. The West easily could and should have done so 10 months ago. Had we done so, all that weaponry could have been fully absorbed and integrated into the Ukrainian military by this point. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2042 "2023-02-03T12:06:40Z")
> **off topic** > > You are making the mistake of assuming the West wants a quick and decisive end to the conflict, versus the longer-term realpolitik benefits achieved by using it as a cauldron to slowly grind Russia down. A more comprehensive response needs to go somewhere other than a Breaking News thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2043 "2023-02-03T12:08:49Z")
> **off topic** > > I think most of the West wants a quick and decisive victory over Russia, but most Western leaders were too cautious (and probably still are to some extent), because of overblown worries about Russian escalation. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2044 "2023-02-03T13:46:49Z")
Hmm, looks like Germany has approved up to 88 Leopard I tanks now. Depending on how they’re equipped, they may be at least the equivalent of the T-72s they were equipped with at the beginning of the war. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2045 "2023-02-03T13:57:05Z")
**Modnote** : Stay on topic and non-political in this thread. This addresses your following post also. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2046 "2023-02-03T15:12:42Z")
Old tanks are still very effective against infrantry. Especially if they’re fighting from basic trenches. Link [The Ukraine repair shop: where Russian tanks go to change sides | Ukraine | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/03/the-ukraine-repair-shop-where-russian-tanks-go-to-change-sides) > [@](#): > > But for all the efforts of the Nato allies, it is Russia that is unwittingly, and yet by some margin, Ukraine’s biggest donor of tanks today. > > Oryx, the open-source Dutch intelligence defence analysis website, has collected photographs of of 546 captured Russian tanks. It will be just a fraction of the total haul that were either abandoned by the fleeing Russian forces or seized in bloody battle. > > Admittedly the trophies do not always turn up in tip-top condition. > > Gesturing towards a T-72B3, covered in dry leaves, and bearing evidence of battle in the form of warped and battered armour, Anatoly proudly boasts that it is the most recent upgrade of the old Soviet T-72 tank. > > It was brought into the facility, which lies just a few miles from the frontlines, by the 54th brigade from the eastern Donetsk region, four weeks ago. “It took a direct hit on its turret,” says Anatoly. “The firing system was damaged too.” > > They plan to get it back on its tracks in swift time, with added armour. There is little time for sentiment. Did Russian soldiers die in it? “I don’t know, I suppose so. There were arms and legs in it. Lots of blood.” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2047 "2023-02-03T15:38:06Z")
Konstantin Yefremov’s story is quite compelling. Before the war he was the head of a de-mining unit of the 42nd Motorised Rifle Division - and was usually based in Chechnya, in Russia’s North Caucasus. The war brought him into situations he never expected. Resigning had to be a big personal risk. > **[Russian army officer admits: 'Our troops tortured Ukrainians'](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64470092)** > > The former senior lieutenant tells the BBC he witnessed the mistreatment of prisoners. > [@](#): > > Konstantin Yefremov’s group moved to guard what he describes as a “logistics headquarters” in April - in the town of Bilmak, to the north-east of Melitopol. There, he says he witnessed interrogations and mistreatment of Ukrainian prisoners. > > He recalls a day when three prisoners were brought in. > > "One of them admitted to being a sniper. On hearing this, the Russian colonel lost his mind. He hit him, he pulled the Ukrainian’s trousers down and asked if he was married. > > “‘Yes,’ the prisoner replied. ‘Then someone bring me a mop,’ said the colonel. ‘We’ll turn you into a girl and send your wife the video.’” > > Another time, says Mr Yefremov, the colonel asked the prisoner to name all the Ukrainian nationalists in his unit. > > “The Ukrainian didn’t understand the question. He replied that the soldiers were naval infantry of the Ukrainian armed forces. For that answer they knocked out some of his teeth.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2048 "2023-02-03T15:38:37Z")
There’s a lot in this thread about armor and artillery. We haven’t heard much about the Russian Navy since the sinking of _Moskva_. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-the-russian-navy-doomed/ar-AA172dIW](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-the-russian-navy-doomed/ar-AA172dIW) In a nutshell: With the exception of submarines, the Russian Navy is old and in disrepair. ‘Putin clearly values the prestige and intimidation factor that large, powerful surface ships can offer,’ but fresh coats of paint don’t make the ships effective – as this war in Ukraine has shown. The author also points out that since \* Admiral Kuznetsov\* has not left port since 2017, ‘meaning that Russia’s cadre of naval aviators has almost certainly ceased to exist as an effective force.’ The Baltic is effectively closed to Russia The author concludes: > The history of Russian naval power is sketchy at best, and there’s a strong argument that Russia should, for the near and medium-term, simply abandon any pretensions to naval power beyond patrol craft and its submarine fleet. Full disclosure: The author of the article, Dr. Robert Farley, wrote _Grounded: The Case for Abolishing the United States Air Force_ (University Press of Kentucky, 2014), so his assessment of Russia’s Navy may be suspect. But I don’t think he’s that far off. I think we have all known for decades how shabby the Russian Navy is – even at the end of the Soviet Union, and certainly afterward. Ukraine effectively does not have a Navy; and yet Ukraine destroyed the Russian flagship in the Black Sea. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is demonstrating Russia’s lack of capability at sea (Navy neutralised), on the ground (prevented from achieving their goals, showing ineptitude in operations), and in the air (failure to achieve air superiority). They’re down to untrained cannon fodder and shelling civilians. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2049 "2023-02-03T23:03:23Z")
Latest aid Package for Ukraine Feb. 3, 2023 | Today, the Department of Defense (DoD) announces a significant new package of security assistance for Ukraine. This includes the authorization of a Presidential Drawdown of security assistance valued at up to $425 million, as well as $1.75 billion in Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI) funds. The Presidential Drawdown is the thirty-first such drawdown of equipment from DoD inventories for Ukraine that the Biden Administration has authorized since August 2021. Today’s announcement includes critical air defense capabilities to help Ukraine defend its people, as well as armored infantry vehicles and more equipment that Ukraine is using so effectively, including Javelin anti-tank missiles, artillery ammunition, and conventional and long-range rockets for U.S.-provided HIMARS. The specific capabilities include: Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); unitary warhead or billion BB warhead not specified. Additional 155mm artillery rounds; not specified, HE, Remote Anti-Armor Mine? Additional 120mm mortar rounds; HE, perhaps some illumination 190 heavy machine guns with thermal imagery sights and associated ammunition to counter Unmanned Aerial Systems; 181 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) Vehicles; 250 Javelin anti-armor systems; seems production is rolling 2,000 anti-armor rockets; AT4 or LAW. Claymore anti-personnel munitions; Demolitions munitions; Cold weather gear, helmets, and other field equipment. Under USAI, the DoD will provide Ukraine with: Two HAWK air defense firing units; Expecting a lot more pressure on Israel to cough up missile (obsolete for them). Anti-aircraft guns and ammunition; Equipment to integrate Western air defense launchers, missiles, and radars with Ukraine’s air defense systems; Equipment to sustain Ukraine’s existing air defense capabilities; Air defense generators; Counter-Unmanned Aerial Systems; Four air surveillance radars; 20 counter-mortar radars; Spare parts for counter-artillery radars; Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems; Precision-guided rockets; [Ground Launched Small Diameter Bomb - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_Launched_Small_Diameter_Bomb#:~:text=The%20weapon%20is%20launched%20from,export%20and%20use%20in%20combat). **THIS IS A BIG DEAL**. Reach is up to 100 miles (160km) bringing a lot more of Russian logistics into range. On the downside, quantities will be small especially at first. It’s not a US inventory item, it’s an industry initiative. Perhaps a live fire test? Communications equipment; Medical supplies; Funding for training, maintenance, and sustainment. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2050 "2023-02-03T23:05:36Z")
I"ve got to think that the economy of the US is going to have an uptick, as all of these military supplies are going to have to be replenished at some point. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2051 "2023-02-03T23:08:24Z")
> **[Congress supersizes munitions production with emergency authorities](https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/12/13/congress-supersizes-munitions-production-with-emergency-authorities/)** > > The NDAA provides billions in munitions funding and emergency procurement authorities with an eye toward competing against China and supporting Ukraine. $8 billion seems a good start to rejuvenate industrial capability. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2052 "2023-02-03T23:11:02Z")
Good overview of projectile manufacturing at Scranton Army Depot (General Dynamics as contractor). > **[Inside the US Army Plant Making Artillery Shells for Ukraine](https://time.com/6252541/inside-the-us-army-plant-making-artillery-shells-for-ukraine/)** > > Hundreds are working 24/7 to keep the pipeline of ordnance flowing as Ukraine fights back against Russian invaders. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2053 "2023-02-03T23:41:30Z")
on a lighter note: > ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2054 "2023-02-04T03:34:14Z")
[![](https://64.media.tumblr.com/eed4f07a1d141e69e6e56873d8f83a72/tumblr_ppdaokcpPY1qj6sk2o1_500.gifv) ](https://64.media.tumblr.com/eed4f07a1d141e69e6e56873d8f83a72/tumblr_ppdaokcpPY1qj6sk2o1_500.gifv) ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2055 "2023-02-04T14:33:46Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Cold weather gear We waited until February? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2056 "2023-02-04T15:09:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I"ve got to think that the economy of the US is going to have an uptick, as all of these military supplies are going to have to be replenished at some point. They probably will be, but they don’t have to be. Remember, the reason all this stuff was made was to neutralize the Russian military. Once that purpose is served, it doesn’t need to be replaced. > [@Cardigan](#): > > We waited until February? Cold-weather gear has been a component of the past several aid packages. We’re sending more of it now, not just starting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=101) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=103)