# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 106
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2117 "2023-02-10T14:17:09Z")
Sure, but I’m impressed by the Moldovan Intelligence confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2118 "2023-02-10T14:19:12Z")
You’re right, that element does tend to lend it more credence. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2119 "2023-02-10T14:23:58Z")
If the war ends with NATO military forces openly deployed on Ukrainian soil, It’s a definite Ukrainian victory. In fact, Ukraine in NATO without all of its land returned is better off than Ukraine with all its land returned but not in NATO. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2120 "2023-02-10T14:27:54Z")
We’re discussing removing the [Breaking-News tag](https://boards.straightdope.com/tag/breaking-news) from this thread to open the conversation up more and remove enforcement of reasonable hijacks. No decision will be made before Monday and maybe later. The discussion is over here: > [@What to do about hijacks?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-hijacks/979509/42): > > Is it time to remove the breaking-news tag from the Ukraine Invasion thread? I’m not against it. Then we would only be moderating insults and political stuff like any other thread. On the other hand, and this is far from scientific, I’ve actually had a lot of thank-yous for keeping that thread on-topic. As I read most of it and more than willing to continue. Thus far I thread-banned 2 posters and I believe handed out 0 warnings in the pair of threads. _Politics and insults will still be prohibited of course._ PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2121 "2023-02-10T14:38:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Ukraine with all its land returned but not in NATO. I’m 90% sure that any “We’ll give you back the Crimea if you promise not to join NATO” treaty will last just about as long as it takes for Ukraine to re-occupy the Crimea. This whole war is basically Ukraine getting screwed because they believed the Russians would respect all the earlier treaties. There’s no way they’re going to (legitimately) take another kick at that football. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2122 "2023-02-10T14:52:16Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Well, from a certain point of view . . . \ > > The Nazi’s basically controlled all of Western Europe (I think before they attacked Russia?) - so kind of? Well, not Spain, Portugal, Switzerland or Sweden. In any case, the statement that “the entire continental Europe took the side of the Nazis” is a gross mischaracterization, since most of the countries only did so after being invaded, conquered and set up with German puppet regimes, all while many of their inhabitants fought on against the Nazis in exile or in internal resistance. [https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/images/large/01f8a8c6-5424-45a9-b578-609353e524d2.gif.pagespeed.ce.2d1vz8RT1F.gif](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/images/large/01f8a8c6-5424-45a9-b578-609353e524d2.gif.pagespeed.ce.2d1vz8RT1F.gif) ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2123 "2023-02-10T14:57:33Z")
Just to be clear, the attached map is of voluntary allies of Nazi Germany, not the nations that had been “invaded, conquered and set up with German puppet regimes”. The European Axis did have a pretty large footprint without considering conquest. But it is very accurate to say that Germany did not come to control Western Europe without significant violence. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2124 "2023-02-10T14:59:51Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Just to be clear, the attached map is of voluntary allies of Nazi Germany, not the nations that had been “invaded, conquered and set up with German puppet regimes”. Exactly. The countries highlighted in the map do not represent “the entire continental Europe". ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2125 "2023-02-10T15:00:41Z")
### And please move on from Nazi allies now or start a new topic. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2126 "2023-02-10T15:01:47Z")
Post deleted; cross-posted with What\_Exit? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2127 "2023-02-10T15:11:32Z")
So, in the latest criminal “War of the Cities” attack on Ukraine, Russia sent missiles through the airspace of non-belligerent nations (Moldova and Romania). > **[Ukraine war: Russia again fires missiles over Moldova in latest strikes](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64593488)** > > President Zelensky says the rockets also passed over Nato member Romania - but Romania denies it. (Moldova is confirmed. Romania is claimed by Ukraine but not confirmed.) We know what Russia thinks of Moldova. > **[Chisinau Confirms Zelenskiy Statement On Russian Plan To Destabilize Moldova](https://www.rferl.org/a/moldova-russia-plan-destabilize-/32264249.html)** > > Moldova's intelligence service has confirmed statements made by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy alleging that Russia has acted to destabilize the country. But if they really put warshots through the airspace of a NATO nation, that’s stupidly reckless. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2128 "2023-02-10T15:48:43Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > But if they really put warshots through the airspace of a NATO nation, that’s stupidly reckless. yes, and just like the missile(s) that landed on polish territory, RU has been very fast to react and dismiss this claim … → so there is a sense of urgency/importance for everything that might “upset” (or be a so-so-reason for NATO to step in) Q: what would be Moldova’s chance to ask for a UN-mandate to protect their airspace (against ALL threats)? Is that completely unthinkable? ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2129 "2023-02-10T15:59:27Z")
some deeper insight on the incompetence of russian armor attacks in Vuhledar relevant part starts around 1:00 min timecode > **[r/ukraine - A column of Russian vehicles hit a minefield one after another at...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/10yldex/a_column_of_russian_vehicles_hit_a_minefield_one/)** > > 2,696 votes and 291 comments so far on Reddit Note to future self: - 1:40 min: if there is a natural passage in those wind-protection-tree alleys to pass easily through - they might be protected by anti-tank mines - 1:55 min: there might be anti-tank-mines for more than 1 tank in those places - like for 2 tanks 😉 - 3:05 min: don’t scoot around high-density-mine territory like joyriding a bumper-car … if all vehicles around you already exploded in the past 5 min due to mines, a good strategy is to backtrack your own trail . and a later picture of the Ukr. response in the same general area (not sure its the same place - but it should give you the overall idea) > **[r/ukraine - Satellite Picture - Aftermath of Russian Offensive in Vuhledar](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/10yqlkl/satellite_picture_aftermath_of_russian_offensive/)** > > 484 votes and 39 comments so far on Reddit ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2130 "2023-02-10T16:16:27Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Well, not Spain, Portugal, Switzerland or Sweden. In any case, the statement that “the entire continental Europe took the side of the Nazis” …and all of that after the USSR _literally_ took “the side of the Nazis” in their non-aggression pact and the division of Poland and other Eastern European countries between Germany and the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2131 "2023-02-10T17:25:42Z")
Moderating: > [@Horatius](#): > > and all of that after the USSR _literally_ took “the side of the Nazis” in their non-aggression pact and the division of Poland and other Eastern European countries between Germany and the USSR This is an official warning for failing to follow moderator instructions. Two hours ago, @What_Exit posted: > [@What\_Exit](#): > > And please move on from Nazi allies now or start a new topic. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2132 "2023-02-10T20:06:13Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > the scorched earth tactics will continue until Russia wins the war. Depends very much on what your definition of “winning” is. A Russia that is a vassal state of China, facing internal revolt, depleted in resources and isolated on the rest of the world stage and in charge of a devastated country with a population that hates them with a passion is not exactly a “win” ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2133 "2023-02-10T20:14:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Depends very much on what your definition of “winning” is. A Russia that is a vassal state of China, facing internal revolt, depleted in resources and isolated on the rest of the world stage and in charge of a devastated country with a population that hates them with a passion is not exactly a “win” Putin no longer cares about his depleted economy, or isolation on the world stage. He has just one goal now-- to destroy Ukraine. He can do that, and that’s a win. And he won’t stop till he has won… ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2134 "2023-02-10T20:23:18Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > He has just one goal now-- to destroy Ukraine. > He can do that, and that’s a win. It may be a “win” in Putin’s tiny mind, but the end result is a Russia that is depleted, beholden to China and no longer a world power. Only a “win” from one man’s twisted perspective is not a win. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2135 "2023-02-10T20:41:24Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > He has just one goal now-- to destroy Ukraine. > He can do that, and that’s a win. It might be theoretically physically possible to do that, but it’s not guaranteed. If Russia runs out of long-distant missiles, or Ukraine’s missile defense improves enough, Russia might end up only being able to destroy what is within artillery range. There’s no way Russia is going to take over all of Ukraine mile by mile. At some point, the front lines will become stagnant, and Ukraine will just declare a 20km border area where they won’t build anything new, and just deploy enough mobile forces and defense bunkers in the hot zone to keep the Russians in place. Then Russia can spend the next thirty years blowing up the same patches of ground every Tuesday and Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2136 "2023-02-10T21:00:57Z")
Until Ukraine accumulates enough offensive firepower to initiate a counteroffensive and take back that territory, and then (if necessary) declare a new DMZ for the Russians to impotently poke at. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=105) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=107)