# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 110
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2199 "2023-02-13T19:24:51Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Russia has expended many thousands of soldiers, scores of armored vehicles, not to mention all the shells and other resources in taking what is now a pile of rubble. And let’s not forget that if all that blood and treasure hadn’t been spent at Bakhmut, it would have been spent elsewhere in Ukraine. Bottling up so much Russian effort in one small area for so long is definitely a good thing, even if Ukraine eventually loses the town. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2200 "2023-02-13T21:08:31Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@chappachula](#): > > > [@Al128](#): > > > > those missiles that make it, tend to upset the power grid for 3-6 hours - but not more. > > I hope this is true. Text within quote boxes should not be altered except per normal editorial rules. If you are going to remove part of a sentence, please use ellipses or some other indication (such as [snip]) to show that something was removed. I have fixed the quote in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2201 "2023-02-13T21:36:00Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Smashed By Ukrainian Mines And Artillery, Russia’s Winter Offensive Just Ground To A Halt Outside Vuhledar ([forbes.com](http://forbes.com)) fairly good analysis in the first forbes article: here a snipplet: _Vuhledar is further evidence of the downward spiral in Russian military effectiveness. Armies that lack robust recruitment, training and industrial bases tend to become steadily less effective as losses deepen._ _Desperate to maintain the pace of operations, the army replaces any well-trained, well-equipped troops who’ve been hurt or killed with an equal number of new recruits_—_but without taking the time, or expending the resources, to train and equip those new troops to the previous standard._ _So the army gets less and less competent even as it inducts more and more new personnel. Incompetence leads to even greater losses, which prompts the army to double down: draft more green troops, train them even less and hurry them to the front even faster than it did the previous recruits._ . seems like a good description of what is going on on the RU side - **esp. the abysmal performance of an attack of _elite_ troops in Vuhledar** … and also the (relative) benefits of the UKR being way more level-headed and light-handed with the use of their resources > [@silenus](#): > > Good luck with that. The frontal vision on Russian IFVs is abysmal. I don’t even want to think what Reverse is like! . my guess is you’d best pull a 180° (on a tracked veh. not too hard, nor are you exposing yourself too much to mines) … and then follow your breadcrumbs - but then again, I shudder at the thought of the sensorial impact (sound, light, vibrations, shock…) of you or the “truck” next to you hitting a mine … that adrenalin rush must be quite something - and not in a good way! … and then add, that you are looking out of e letter-box slot and see prob. only 5% of your surroundings … that is food for my personal nightmares ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2202 "2023-02-13T22:04:15Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > and then add, that you are looking out of e letter-box slot and see prob. only 5% of your surroundings … that is food for my personal nightmares No kidding. These poor (cannon fodder) souls are sitting in metal boxes that offer little to no protection and they are likely to be shredded at any minute. I can’t imagine that kind of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2203 "2023-02-14T01:09:33Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > And I wonder if they have mine detection equipment. Of course they do. They successfully detected every one of those mines. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2204 "2023-02-14T02:12:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course they do. They successfully detected every one of those mines. not only did they detect them, they simultaneously defused them - that is no small feat, taking into account that they received very little training … but yes … it is sad and tragic in a WW1-western front kind of sense ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2205 "2023-02-14T02:19:13Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > No kidding. These poor (cannon fodder) souls are sitting in metal boxes that offer little to no protection and they are likely to be shredded at any minute. I can’t imagine that kind of torture. Their new T-14 tanks have cameras for increased visibility. Is there any chance they modified their older tanks? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2206 "2023-02-14T02:54:12Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Their new T-14 tanks have cameras for increased visibility. Is there any chance they modified their older tanks? Likely not, based on this paragraph in a [CNN article](https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/13/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-donetsk-fiasco-intl/index.html): > Moscow Calling [Russian milblogger] asserted that older T-72 tanks deployed in Vuhledar lack upgrades that would improve the driver’s breadth of vision. That may help explain several instances in which Russian tanks seemed to get entangled or reverse blindly. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2207 "2023-02-14T05:47:08Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I am sad today. > It looks like Russia’s tactics are working. Sacrifice enough soldiers as canon fodder, and quantity is all that matters, despite low quality equipment and logistics. If only there was some historical figure that Putin could learn from – for example, somebody like Pyrrhus. > **[Pyrrhus of Epirus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus)** > > Pyrrhus (/ˈpɪrəs/ PIRR-əss; Greek: Πύρρος Pýrrhos; 319/318–272 BC) was a Greek king and statesman of the Hellenistic period. He was king of the Molossians, of the royal Aeacid house, and later he became king (Malalas also called him toparch) of Epirus. He was one of the strongest opponents of early Rome, and had been regarded as one of the greatest generals of antiquity. Several of his victorious battles caused him unacceptably heavy losses, from which the term "Pyr Pyrrhus became king of Epirus ... ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2208 "2023-02-14T19:31:19Z")
Ukraine, your parcel has arrived at the Bremerhaven sorting facility: > ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2209 "2023-02-14T19:47:25Z")
I hope they sent some paint along with those Bradleys. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2210 "2023-02-14T19:52:16Z")
Who knows, maybe they’re slated to take part in an offensive around the Oleshky Sands region of Ukraine 😁 [Спільнота Місцевих експертів - Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5683593,32.9922228,3a,75y,344.66h,103.34t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPfV9FS8Hu1RfCxGDzPxQKSTRbM61vWYFO7k_eI!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPfV9FS8Hu1RfCxGDzPxQKSTRbM61vWYFO7k_eI%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-9.903537-ya58.8746-ro-0-fo100!7i4000!8i2000) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2211 "2023-02-14T20:04:33Z")
They’re giving away where their next offensive’s going to be! Or maybe it’s a ruse to make the Russians think that. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2212 "2023-02-14T20:15:50Z")
Pretty sure the Russians have claimed all of those as destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2213 "2023-02-14T20:20:32Z")
That is damned efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2214 "2023-02-14T20:22:34Z")
I somehow doubt that Russia’s economy will be able to keep up with NATO in terms of producing military weapons of many different kinds. Russia GDP = 1.8 trillion (probably less now) NATO GDP - 46 trillion. Russia’s economic output is less than Italy’s. The US is currently ramping up production as the stockpiles are being transferred to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2215 "2023-02-14T21:29:20Z")
this could be potentially significant: > **[r/ukraine - Western intelligence shows Russians amassing aircraft on Ukraine...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1128vm9/western_intelligence_shows_russians_amassing/)** > > 695 votes and 183 comments so far on Reddit … a few sentences from the FT article: _US defence secretary Lloyd Austin highlighted the threat of Russia’s significant remaining air force._ _“The Russian land forces are pretty depleted so it’s the best indication that they will turn this into an air fight. If the Ukrainians are going to survive . . . they need to have as many air defence capabilities and as much ammunition . . . as possible,” the official added._ \*“We do know Russia has substantial aircraft . . . and a lot of capability left,” Austin said. \* _… intelligence assessments indicate that Russia’s air force is “actually quite preserved”, a senior Nato diplomat said._ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2216 "2023-02-14T21:32:30Z")
It’s good if that motivates more military assistance, but I don’t buy that Russia is holding any significant conventional forces back. They’re losing and losing and losing, occasional meaningless villages notwithstanding, and Putin’s been revealed to be an uninformed buffoon rather than some sort of military chessmaster. If he has tons of aircraft sitting and not fighting, it’s because he doesn’t have the pilots, doesn’t have the supplies and ammunition, or the aircraft aren’t working. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2217 "2023-02-14T21:39:57Z")
“Quite preserved” probably just means that they have a lot of hardware sitting around intact. Says nothing about their airworthiness or availability of pilots to utilize it effectively. Russia does not have air superiority in the Ukraine. If they did, they would have been taking advantage of it all this time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2218 "2023-02-14T22:05:49Z")
And it seems foolish to me to “amass” aircraft near the combat zone, over a period of time, before using them. The whole point of aircraft is that they can move quickly. Many of them, you can fly from remote bases, hit the target, and fly back home (some of the US planes that fought in Iraq flew from the US and back for each mission). And if you need to stop closer to the front to refuel, you land for just long enough to do that, and then take off again and carry out your mission. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=109) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=111)