# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2573 "2023-03-01T19:52:18Z")
It’s a way of saying we know you can’t do anything about it, becasue you know its going to happen anyway. Becasue you are stupid. I fart in your general direction Putin. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2574 "2023-03-01T20:06:44Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Why would they announce an attack? Don’t armies not want the enemy know they are going to attack? I wonder whether they’re not loudly announcing an attack, sending out “leaks” about where, when, and how it’s going to happen – and actually going to do something else altogether. Or maybe they’re trying to make sure the Russian-side troops on the ground don’t get any sleep. Ideally for long enough that they’ll be useless when actually attacked. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2575 "2023-03-01T20:22:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Why would they announce an attack? Don’t armies not want the enemy know they are going to attack? One possibility is they want Russia to divert forces away from the Donbas / the attacks on Bakhmut. If the defending Russian forces are going to face major losses, the more they have in the targeted area the better. I’m just an armchair general, but the reported plan seems like a good idea. If Ukraine succeeds in driving that wedge towards Melitopol or some other area nearby, Russia will have to have two separate supply lines and armies, one for the Donbas and a separate one for Crimea. That would be a huge advantage going forward. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2576 "2023-03-01T20:51:10Z")
Much like the previous offensive, all the talk was about Kerson in the south. Ukrainian forces danced about down there (think US Marines sailing up and down the coast off Kuwait in Desert Storm), then the major attack came in the north with the huge territorial recapture. Followed by retaking (it was still serious combat) Kerson which was alway untenable to hold once the Russian forces were stalled heading toward Odessa. (When your rear is a difficult to cross large river with destroyed bridges, you retreat.) Ukraine is confident they can pick the time and place for an attack (or a feint). They have a qualitative edge on Russian forces PLUS the motivation. A shot toward Metropol looks like the plan. The Ukrainians actually don’t have to get all the way there. An advance to bring the southern Russian supply line under conventional artillery control would destabilize the entire Russian effort by splitting up the theaters. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2577 "2023-03-01T21:10:23Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > One possibility is they want Russia to divert forces away from the Donbas / the attacks on Bakhmut I reckon this is it. Ukraine may want to wait a few more weeks for more tanks and other heavy supplies to arrive. If this means more Russians hunker down in defensive positions doing nothing than all the better for Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2578 "2023-03-01T21:11:58Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Much like the previous offensive, all the talk was about Kerson in the south. Ukrainian forces danced about down there (think US Marines sailing up and down the coast off Kuwait in Desert Storm), then the major attack came in the north with the huge territorial recapture. Followed by retaking (it was still serious combat) Kerson which was alway untenable to hold once the Russian forces were stalled heading toward Odessa. (When your rear is a difficult to cross large river with destroyed bridges, you retreat.) > > Ukraine is confident they can pick the time and place for an attack (or a feint). They have a qualitative edge on Russian forces PLUS the motivation. A shot toward Metropol looks like the plan. The Ukrainians actually don’t have to get all the way there. An advance to bring the southern Russian supply line under conventional artillery control would destabilize the entire Russian effort by splitting up the theaters. Yep, Ukraine loudly announced its objective in Kherson last time and used the misdirection to pull off a quick sucker punch up north catching Rus. off guard and enabling them to retake virtually all of Kharkiv. I doubt they’ll be able to achieve that level of operational surprise again. But yes, a drive south makes perfect strategic sense. Working in Ukr. favor is they will soon have access to several dozen western tanks and other armored vehicles, plus they’ve had some time to train and prepare their forces. Working against them this time is that Rus. evidently understands their strategic position, and has spent months [\> building defensive fortifications, laying minefields](https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1rRKs40IEbGRsV0Fhky25l5OkPJ_vUvQ&ll=48.90677081913808%2C35.235204999999986&z=6), and deployed tens of thousands of additional new troops (many of which are presumably poorly trained) from their mobilization last fall. The timing of their offensive will be critical. Right now the entire country is mud, plus they’re still waiting on training and additional weapons from the west. But they don’t want to wait too long. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2579 "2023-03-01T21:20:36Z")
And let’s not kid ourselves, the actual plans are coming out of the Pentagon in coordination with the Ukrainian military. The Ukranians have heart but we are supplying them the materials and intel. Well planned leaks and misdirection are part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2580 "2023-03-01T21:21:37Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Yeah, not much of a peace plan from Ukraine’s PoV. “Russia gets to keep all the land they stole and pinky-swear to not want any more.” Also known as the “Just Let them Annex the Sudetenland Plan” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2581 "2023-03-01T21:23:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I wonder whether they’re not loudly announcing an attack, sending out “leaks” about where, when, and how it’s going to happen – and actually going to do something else altogether. I don’t wonder about this at all. It’s almost certainly happening. ---
**Author:** ![Ssounder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@Ssounder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ssounder)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2582 "2023-03-01T22:38:12Z")
With modern satellite surveillance, it’s not easy to sneak forces around. I watch the [Weather Maps](https://zoom.earth/#view=48.821,35.574,7z/map=live) for timing hints. Ukraine is currently under low thin clouds and fog, heaver in the west. Dense cloud cover would probably be a preferable time for troop movements. The current 10-day forecast indicates more significant cloud cover starting next Wednesday 3/8 through at least 3/11. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2023, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2583 "2023-03-01T23:20:45Z")
The fighting is ramping up. I admire Ukraine’s commitment to protect their country. Imagine what Ukraine can do when the modern tanks arrive. Guardian blog > [@](#): > > ## Russia loses at least 130 tanks and APCs in Vuhledar in ‘biggest tank battle in Ukraine war’ – report > > **Russia has lost at least 130 tanks and armoured personnel carriers in a three-week battle in the town of Vuhledar in southern [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine), according to Ukrainian officials.** > > Ukrainian officials said the “epic” fight on a plain near Vuhledar produced the biggest tank battle of the war so far and a stinging setback for the Russians, the New York Times [reports](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-russia-tanks.html). > > Both sides sent tanks into the fray, “with the Russians thrusting forward in columns and the Ukrainians manoeuvring defensively, firing from a distance or from hiding places as Russian columns came into their sights”, the paper writes. > > > When it was over, not only had Russia failed to capture Vuhledar, but it also had made the same mistake that cost Moscow hundreds of tanks earlier in the war: advancing columns into ambushes. > > The remains of the Russian tanks, blown up on mines, hit with artillery or destroyed by anti-tank missiles, now litter farm fields all about the coal mining town, according to Ukrainian military drone footage. > > Russian troops also suffered a lack of experienced tank commanders in Vuhledar, and many of the fighters consisted of newly conscripted soldiers who had not been trained in Ukraine’s tactics for ambushing columns, the paper says. Ambushes have been Ukraine’s signature tactic against Russian armoured columns since the early days of the war. > > By last week, Russia had lost so many machines to sustained armoured assaults that they had changed tactics and resorted only to infantry attacks, Ukrainian commanders said. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2584 "2023-03-02T02:44:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Also known as the “Just Let them Annex the Sudetenland Plan” The war has often been compared to WWII in that area by the press. How is this like WWII when Ukraine receiving two dozen tanks makes a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2585 "2023-03-02T03:07:04Z")
Ukraine has received military assistance greater than Russians annual military budget. The tanks by themselves wouldn’t make much difference. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2586 "2023-03-02T12:18:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > How is this like WWII when Ukraine receiving two dozen tanks makes a difference? I think weapons systems just scale differently. How does the power of a single modern tank compare to one from WWII? Or a modern fighter jet to a Spitfire or Ju88? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2587 "2023-03-02T13:28:06Z")
WWII equipment fought with 1940’s technology. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2588 "2023-03-02T13:37:41Z")
Sorry- I don’t follow. I thought your point (I could have misunderstood) was that in WWII armies fielded thousands of tanks, while now we’re fielding dozens. Same is true for airplanes. But with modern weapon systems so much more effective AND complex AND expensive, it seems to me that armies make just as much go boom with far fewer individual units (my scale response). Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2589 "2023-03-02T13:46:45Z")
In one scenario, you’re getting a few dozen WW2 tanks when you _and your enemy_ both have thousands of WW2 tanks. In Ukraine, Ukraine is getting a few dozen relatively modern tanks when the enemy has only a handful of relatively modern tanks left, along with thousands of obsolescent ones. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2590 "2023-03-02T13:57:50Z")
Define relativly modern. The tanks the Ukraine are getting have supeior targeting capibilities due to technologies developed by the western allliance, which has proven to be better than Russian tanks built with Russian technolgy and copied (but not equal) western tech. That and the Ukrainan tanks have an advantage in being much better maintained and a better supply line for future maintaince. This adds up to them being more capible of commanding the battlefield. A few dozen tanks that don’t break down and are capible of avoiding enemy attack are better than a hunderd worn down tanks with bad maintanace. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2591 "2023-03-02T14:02:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The war has often been compared to WWII in that area by the press. > How is this like WWII when Ukraine receiving two dozen tanks makes a difference? It’s not like WWII in it’s technologies or tactics. It’s like WWII in its politics. We’re confronted by an expansionist state run by a dictator, who is lying to create a narrative to justify invading bits and pieces of its neighbors. The dictator is hoping that the western democratic states will be too weak-willed to oppose this expansion, so he can get land for free. So far, with Crimea, that was correct. Crimea was like Austria. Putin thought Ukraine was going to be the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia, but instead, it turned out to be Poland. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2592 "2023-03-02T14:11:09Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > It’s like WWII in its politics Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=128)