# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2875 "2023-03-13T19:52:26Z")
Because he’s not worried about NATO attacking. He’s worried about nations formerly within the sphere of Russian influence rejecting close ties with Russia in favour of aligning with the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2876 "2023-03-13T19:53:05Z")
The Iraqi’s fielded T-52, T-62s and T-72s. The British had the Challenger 1 which destroyed 300 Iraqi tanks without suffering a single loss. The Ukrainians won’t have many Challenger 2s but it’s of a similar level to other provided NATO tanks (and supposedly not as good as the American Abrams tank depending on the situation). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2877 "2023-03-13T19:54:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If he were so worried about NATO moving in, why the hell wasn’t Putin building modern tanks instead of invading countries? Well, [he was](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-14_Armata) - but it’s all about the Benajmin’s and Putin didn’t and doesn’t have many. Note that there were supposed to be 2,300 T-14’s in service by 2020. But that didn’t happen. Instead delivery has been delayed multiple times and is going slowww. While Russian aircraft and missile development has continued somewhat apace (somewhat), Russian tank development has been in design hell since the USSR collapsed. The fact that they had an enormous stockpile of old rusting hulks no doubt helped them to internally pass the buck as they concentrated their research and procurement dollars elsewhere. The [T-95 program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-95) languished in limbo from 1988-2010 until being abandoned and revived later as the the new T-14. The [T-90](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90) was a bit of a stop-gap - basically yet another upgraded T-72, that then had its production slashed because they were expecting the T-14 to show up a lot earlier than they did. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2878 "2023-03-13T20:06:36Z")
Those guy haven’t had anyone smart running the shop since Alexander III. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2879 "2023-03-14T00:56:11Z")
And then they blew his legs off. I think Stalin was smart. Evil, but smart. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2880 "2023-03-14T01:36:15Z")
Stalin was an idiot. Divide up Poland with Germany, What Could Go Wrong? He went fucking comatose when Germany invaded. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2881 "2023-03-14T01:45:31Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And then they blew his legs off. [Isn’t that Alexander II?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia#Assassination) Alexander III, Nicholas II father, held up the roof of a crashed train car to allow his family to escape. He was one tough son of a bitch. He died of natural causes, lamenting (I do not remember the exact words) “Holy shit, what will happen with that pussy, my son Nicholas II running the joint?” Alexander II had “freed the serfs” making his assassination the reason the (few) later Tsars kicked serf ass. Putin apparently did not pay attention. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2882 "2023-03-14T03:52:08Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > The idea of Putin’s administration deliberately bleeding internal rivals’ armies to ineffectiveness feels likely. as does the likelihood they will form an alliance of their resources. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2883 "2023-03-14T04:53:23Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I think Stalin was smart. Evil, but smart. Stalin was also not Russian. His name was Ioseb Dzughashvili. He was from Georgia (which has very much not been fond of Russia for quite some while). ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2884 "2023-03-14T11:35:24Z")
BBC has a story on [the map the Ukranians are using to track the Russian command structure.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/14/the-4-metre-wide-board-detailing-the-entire-russian-military-chain-of-command-in-ukraine) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2885 "2023-03-14T11:40:33Z")
And while I’m thinking about it-there has been much discussion of people using slanted or Russian-influenced sources. What informational sources do posters usually rely on for good Ukraine stories? Is the BBC reliable? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2886 "2023-03-14T11:56:29Z")
Ukraine’s best soldiers are all dead. I hope I’m wrong. But here’s some pessimistic news about Ukrainian casualties and ability to continue fighting. > **[Ukraine short of skilled troops and munitions as losses, pessimism grow](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/13/ukraine-casualties-pessimism-ammunition-shortage/)** > > Ukraine’s military has been degraded by a year of heavy casualties. Front-line units are now struggling with new, poorly trained troops and a shortage of ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2887 "2023-03-14T12:00:24Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Ukraine’s best soldiers are all dead. > I hope I’m wrong. > > But here’s some pessimistic news about Ukrainian casualties and ability to continue fighting. There’s something like 20K Ukrainian soldiers who are just now completing their training in Germany, Spain, the UK, and the US. At least some of them (and my guess is that it’s likely all of them) were already experienced members of the Ukrainian Armed Forces prior to that training. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2888 "2023-03-14T12:29:23Z")
I think the people getting training on advanced systems are probably experienced, but probably most of those are new recruits getting basic marksmanship/first aid/tactics training. Both Ukraine and Russia are degraded. Ukraine’s equipment is getting better and Russia’s is getting worse though. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2889 "2023-03-14T13:00:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Isn’t that Alexander II? Quite right, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2890 "2023-03-14T13:52:51Z")
Ukraine may have some shortages of certain weapons/ammo, but we’re getting independent confirmation that things may be considerably worse on the Russian side, due to the strategy of attrition Russia chose to follow since redirecting most of its combat power and resources into an offensive in the Donbas the past eight months. [Russia’s war hawks say attrition has backfired in Ukraine: ‘We have no rounds’ (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-s-war-hawks-say-attrition-has-backfired-in-ukraine-we-have-no-rounds/ar-AA18zTnm?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=49ad4a6fdb7d487c9c2eadbdc5876601&ei=11) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2891 "2023-03-14T15:53:33Z")
It’s interesting how sometimes armies get better as the war goes on, sometimes they get worse. It can happen in the same army - the U.S. military improved throughout the Civil War and WW2, but degraded during Vietnam. I wonder what factors are involved in each case. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2892 "2023-03-14T16:00:31Z")
Russian wars always start disastrously for them. Not sure the Russian army gets better as time goes on but it does get bigger, as they throw vast numbers of men at the problem. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2893 "2023-03-14T16:15:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s interesting how sometimes armies get better as the war goes on, sometimes they get worse. It can happen in the same army - the U.S. military improved throughout the Civil War and WW2, but degraded during Vietnam. I wonder what factors are involved in each case. > [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Russian wars always start disastrously for them. Not sure the Russian army gets better as time goes on but it does get bigger, as they throw vast numbers of men at the problem. It seems like it’s a combination of two things. Whether or not a country is “all in” and how much untapped reserves there are. With Russia, as noted, the untapped reserves typically consist of throwing large numbers of men into the meat grinder. For Russia it’s a matter of how close they can get to being “all in.” How many men Putin can mobilize before he risks a coup? With Ukraine, obviously they are all in. The question is how much untapped reserves there will be, which in this case are the weapons being provided by the Americans and Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/2894 "2023-03-14T16:26:29Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Not sure the Russian army gets better as time goes on but it does get bigger “Quantity has a quality all its own.” – Joseph Stalin It’s a very Soviet (and post-Soviet) mindset, but it has its limits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=143)