# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 154
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3115 "2023-03-22T15:09:11Z")
Those things can be taken out with a tin opener but if the Russians have any sense they will bury the tanks in the ground and use them as artillery canons. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3116 "2023-03-22T16:06:42Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > bury the tanks in the ground and use them as artillery canons. Isn’t that what Iraq tried? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3117 "2023-03-22T17:50:28Z")
That isn’t your great grandfathers T-54/55. I get the impression the fire and control system has been updated. Maybe communications? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3118 "2023-03-22T17:56:53Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > > [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > > > bury the tanks in the ground and use them as artillery canons. > > Isn’t that what Iraq tried? As I recall, yes. The Iraqis had a fortification line with tanks embedded… And the US just put blades on their tanks and rolled right through them. They are still not sure how many Iraqi soldiers were just buried in there, but there were descriptions of the US soldiers looking back and seeing arms and legs sticking out of the sand… ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3119 "2023-03-22T17:57:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > The Russians should just cut to the chase, and paint large bullseye targets on these T-54/55 's Really. So much for the concern the other day that the US was sending M1A1 instead of M1A2 Abrams. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3120 "2023-03-22T18:15:57Z")
Not by much, if at all. The T-54/55 have a rifled gun of a different size and no auto-loader, so improved (and unproven) communications is going to mean jack. The logistics for these pigs are going to be a mess under _perfect_ conditions, and we know Russia doesn’t seem to have that word in their language. Only 20mm of belly armor, and we’ve seen how effectively the Ukrainians have been using mines. There is also a fuel tank right behind the frontal armor, which is ridiculously thin by today’s standards. Total death-traps. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3121 "2023-03-22T18:18:42Z")
I understand it to be, if you will pardon the unintentional pun, a last ditch effort. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3122 "2023-03-22T18:19:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And the US just put blades on their tanks and rolled right through them. But the US won’t be sending Ukraine any tanks this year , with or without blades . And my guess is that Ukraine won’t be able to hold out more than a half a year or so. They are running out of ammunition, just like Russia. (see the cite below) I predict that as soon as the weather improves and the mud dries up, Ukraine will make one last big push—similar to the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. After which the war will come to a stalemate. Ukraine won’t formally surrender. But they will have to live without 15% or 20% of their territory which is still occupied by Russia,(and Russia will declare that there is now a buffer zone large enough to protect their motherland, so the special military operation is ending). [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/us-weapons-factories-ukraine-ammunition/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/us-weapons-factories-ukraine-ammunition/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3123 "2023-03-22T18:21:40Z")
You’ve been predicting doom since the beginning. Not sure why this doom is any different than the last several dooms. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3124 "2023-03-22T18:26:53Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But they will have to live without 15% or 20% of their territory which is still occupied by Russia,(and Russia will declare that there is now a buffer zone large enough to protect their motherland, so the special military operation is ending). Which follows the way Russian ends wars; declare victory and go home. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3125 "2023-03-22T18:28:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not sure why this doom is any different than the last several dooms. because of articles like this: > **[Ukraine short of skilled troops and munitions as losses, pessimism grow](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/03/13/ukraine-casualties-pessimism-ammunition-shortage/)** > > Ukraine’s military has been degraded by a year of heavy casualties. Front-line units are now struggling with new, poorly trained troops and a shortage of ammunition. from the article: > [@](#): > > The quality of Ukraine’s military force, once considered a substantial advantage over Russia, has been degraded by a year of casualties that have taken many of the most experienced fighters off the battlefield, leading some Ukrainian officials to question Kyiv’s readiness to mount a much-anticipated spring offensive. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3126 "2023-03-22T18:31:39Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Which follows the way Russian ends wars; declare victory and go home. yes, that’s true… It may look like a failure to you, but in this case Russia can declare victory and go home, while proudly holding a huge swath of Ukrainian land. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3127 "2023-03-22T18:47:02Z")
And never trade with anyone but North Korea, Venezuela, and maybe China ever again. Good luck in selling all that oil and gas to Maduro. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3128 "2023-03-22T18:59:25Z")
Does the rest of the world trade with China, N. Korea or Venezuela? N. Korean could resell some of that oil and make a bunch more nifty ballistic missiles for the kiddies to ogle. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3129 "2023-03-22T19:00:01Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It may look like a failure to you, but in this case Russia can declare victory and go home, while proudly holding a huge swath of Ukrainian land. Russia will need to leave behind a considerable force to hold the land. Withdrawing without a peace agreement is the same as reducing troop numbers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3130 "2023-03-22T19:08:49Z")
That article is describing what happens in war, which is inherently pessimistic and negative. Nothing in that article, beyond the headline and some editorial qualifiers unrelated to facts, provides any reason to believe that Ukraine is less likely to be effective than anything we knew the week, month, or even year before. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3131 "2023-03-22T19:09:11Z")
If they “go home”, they aren’t keeping any Ukrainian territory. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3132 "2023-03-22T19:12:21Z")
Are you borrowing the Spartan response to Phillip II of Macedonia? I imagine if they went home with part of Ukraine as a buffer, once they built new tanks and trained pilots, they would decide it wasn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3133 "2023-03-22T19:22:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I imagine if they went home with part of Ukraine as a buffer, once they built new tanks and trained pilots, they would decide it wasn’t enough. Would that matter, though? Any end to the current active war that leaves a significant part of Ukraine alive and functional as a country just gives Ukraine just as much time to re-arm as it does Russia. I can’t see Ukraine skimping on its military any time in the next few decades. And even if the new cold war period between Ukraine and Russia means that Ukraine doesn’t formally join NATO, it’s a given that they’ll be buying as much NATO equipment as we’re willing to sell to them, while also building up domestic sources for weapons and ammunition. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see them also adopt some kind of universal conscription, so that every able bodied adult has at least some idea of what to do on a battlefield. And those people will have far more motivation to learn than any Russian conscripts. Give Ukraine 10 years of decent western-style training with western weapons, and they’ll eat any Russian army alive. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3134 "2023-03-22T19:25:32Z")
I hate to see it start all over again. One could also argue that during that time Russia could straighten out horrible way they run their military. Ukraine joining NATO and wanting to take back the land they lost to Russia would be a bad situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=153) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=155)