# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 155
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3135 "2023-03-22T19:33:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I hate to see it start all over again. Unfortunately, I can’t really see it going any other way. There’s no way Ukraine can destroy Russia enough to eliminate Russia as a threat, so this ends with either Ukraine destroyed as a country, or some kind of stand-off between Ukraine and Russia, with whatever borders end up being enforceable by either side. Sure, maybe if Russia gets beat badly enough, they take a moment to finally realize why and how they screwed up so badly, and decide to stop being such jerks and start actually trying to reform their country. But even if that happens, would Ukraine bet on that actually working out long-term? Not a chance. They made that mistake in 1991. No way do they do that again. Maybe after 50 years of a Russian Renaissance, they decide to stop assuming the worst about what will come, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3136 "2023-03-22T19:46:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One could also argue that during that time Russia could straighten out horrible way they run their military. Russia had thirty years to do that from the collapse of the Soviet empire to the invasion of Ukraine and didn’t manage it, even after the lessons learned in Afghanistan. The kleptos ravaged it like the stinking corpse it is. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3137 "2023-03-22T19:58:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That isn’t your great grandfathers T-54/55. I get the impression the fire and control system has been updated. Maybe communications? Ukraine has already shown that can deal with better equipped tanks than this. Also, the Russians have had communication problems since day one that they haven’t been able to fix. That’s why their comms are so easy to intercept, they are often uncoded and on cell phones. ETA: Sigh. Or what @silenus said. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3138 "2023-03-22T20:00:08Z")
> **[La France forme l’armée de l’air ukrainienne sur des Mirage](https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/la-france-forme-des-pilotes-ukrainiens-sur-des-mirage-20230322)** > > INFO LE FIGARO - Si la décision politique était prise, la France pourrait livrer une dizaine d’avions de chasse à l’armée ukrainienne. It’s paywalled even with google translate but here’s the gist. “For more than a month and a half, about thirty of them (Ukrainian pilots) have been receiving accelerated training on French fighter jets at the air bases of Mont-de-Marsan and Nancy. The decision was taken before Volodymyr Zelensky’s visit to Paris on February 8.” If the French move forward and provide an appropriate model that opens the door to SCALP/Storm Shadow… (advanced NATO/western missiles). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3139 "2023-03-22T20:01:14Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Maybe after 50 years of a Russian Renaissance, they decide to stop assuming the worst about what will come, maybe. So, like, around 2080 or so? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3140 "2023-03-22T20:03:34Z")
Yeah, something like that. Long enough that enough new Ukrainian voters have no living memory of Russia being a belligerent asshole. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3141 "2023-03-22T20:07:44Z")
They said that about Ivan Grozny. ---
**Author:** ![Ssounder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@Ssounder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ssounder)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3142 "2023-03-23T03:31:34Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > _so this ends with either Ukraine destroyed as a country, or some kind of stand-off between Ukraine and Russia, with whatever borders end up being enforceable by either side._ I’m skeptical of this outcome. There are Ukrainian/NATO/Pentagon war planners table-topping every conceivable scenario. Equipment and ammunition with increased range/accuracy is arriving soon. Ukrainian forces have already had success eliminating key command and re-supply routes. Shoot behind the front and starve the enemy out. One could conceivably push an enemy back behind their border and beyond effective weapons range. Creating a new DMZ. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3143 "2023-03-23T03:46:50Z")
I doubt Ukraine will remain destroyed as a country, if there is a cease fire I would expect a significant amount western funds going in and rebuilding the power infrastructure, hardening utilities and putting in some heavy duty roads and rail lines capable of moving a lot of heavy stuff forwards to wards Russia and keeping it supplied . (No doubt a lot of that going to western contractors to build and install ) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3144 "2023-03-23T11:54:07Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > stand-off between Ukraine and Russia, with whatever borders end up being enforceable by either side. > [@Ssounder](#): > > Shoot behind the front and starve the enemy out. One could conceivably push an enemy back behind their border and beyond effective weapons range. > Creating a new DMZ. …and that would be my second scenario. You won’t go into Russia itself, on the principle that you _do not invade a nuclear power_. With that major restriction in place, it becomes an issue of how to then keep Russia behind that border indefinitely. The solution to that is a well-armed and trained Ukrainian military, combined with keeping Russia economically depressed. But eventually Russia will overcome the economic sanctions, and start to build more weapons, and they _will_ be looking at Ukraine with a jealous eye, if they don’t get their heads out of their collective asses. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3145 "2023-03-23T11:57:28Z")
> [@Precambrianmollusc](#): > > I doubt Ukraine will remain destroyed as a country, In the first scenario, I was imagining a (near-?)total Russian win. Of course, that’s the least likely outcome, but it’s also the only one that doesn’t end with a permanent stand-off between Russia and Ukraine. Of course, this means there will be other stand-offs, with Poland and Moldova, at least, and probably Finland, Estonia _et al._ ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3146 "2023-03-23T15:26:07Z")
Russian T-54s spotted on their way to the front? Sounds like things are going to plan. Russian trolls have been posting online for months that pretty soon Russia is going to break out THE REALLY GOOD STUFF they’ve been holding back. Maybe this is it? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3147 "2023-03-23T15:36:52Z")
Could be: > ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3148 "2023-03-23T16:40:30Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Russian T-54s spotted on their way to the front? Sounds like things are going to plan. Russian trolls have been posting online for months that pretty soon Russia is going to break out THE REALLY GOOD STUFF they’ve been holding back. Maybe this is it? I thought the really good stuff was the T-34s, leftover Shermans from lend-lease, and maybe even a Tiger or Panther that they captured from the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3149 "2023-03-23T16:54:59Z")
They’re not old; they’re vintage. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3150 "2023-03-23T16:58:29Z")
Vintage is not a word you want to hear in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3151 "2023-03-23T17:04:46Z")
Perhaps T-34s would be better. After all, those tanks enjoy considerable cachet as being the very same vehicles used by Heroes of the Soviet Union to repel Nazi invaders. Good enough for their great grandparents, good enough now. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3152 "2023-03-23T17:28:47Z")
Russia can probably trade with some African nations too. [Many aren’t fully on the pro-Ukraine side from what I’ve read.](https://issafrica.org/iss-today/unpacking-africas-divided-stance-on-the-ukraine-war) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3153 "2023-03-23T17:47:40Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Vintage is not a word you want to hear in the military. “Thoroughly tested” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3154 "2023-03-23T17:51:53Z")
Is thoroughly tested against nazis, Comrade. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=154) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=156)