# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 160
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3235 "2023-03-27T08:40:34Z")
Well, shotguns are widely applicable in large part due to the fact that (depending on load) the shot loses KE and lethality really quick, unlike bullets. Bird shot etc. raining down back on you, after full flight, is no biggie. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3236 "2023-03-27T09:04:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If I was leading a small country’s military, I’d be building a drone corps, holding school competitions to build drone skills in future soldiers, etc. I’m pretty sure this was the plot of _Toys_, ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3237 "2023-03-27T10:59:21Z")
The big problem is getting 14 Tanks into Ukraine without getting bombed. > **[Ukrainian troops return home after Challenger 2 tank training in UK](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/27/ukrainian-troops-return-home-after-challenger-2-tank-training-in-uk)** > > Crews spent several weeks learning how to operate tanks expected to be used in a Ukraine counteroffensive > [@](#): > > The troops travelled to Britain shortly after Rishi Sunak announced in January that the UK would send 14 Challenger 2 tanks to [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine). The MoD could not confirm the exact location of the tanks. > > The Ukrainian crews and the tanks are expected to be in position in time for a spring counteroffensive that is believed to be in the works. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3238 "2023-03-27T11:03:38Z")
If they are in danger of not making it _into_ Ukraine without getting bombed, the Russians have more problems to worry about than just 14 tanks. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3239 "2023-03-27T11:11:28Z")
Disguise them as parade floats and invite Putin to the celebration? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3240 "2023-03-27T11:11:50Z")
There’s still no hope of negotiation to get out of this war. This could drag on for years. This article focuses on Putin and his unwillingness to end the war. Link [Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, March 26, 2023 | Institute for the Study of War](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-26-2023) > [@](#): > > ISW is publishing an abbreviated campaign update today, March 26. This report discusses Russian President Vladimir Putin’s continued efforts to seek complete victory in Ukraine, which he appears confident that he can attain over time. Putin seems to reject the idea increasingly prevalent in Western discourse that the current military realities require or support a negotiated resolution of the conflict. Neither Ukraine nor the West has persuaded him that he must consider accepting any sort of off-ramp or compromise settlement. **Putin instead remains focused on achieving his initial war aims through protracted conflict in which he wins either by imposing his will on Ukraine by force or by breaking Ukraine’s will following the West’s abandonment of Kyiv. Multiple successful Ukrainian counter-offensives are almost certainly necessary but not sufficient either to persuade Putin to negotiate on acceptable terms or to create military conditions on the ground favorable enough to Ukraine and the West that continued or renewed Russian attacks pose acceptable threats to Ukraine or NATO.** ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3241 "2023-03-27T14:09:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Are shotguns something unusual in other parts of the world Shotguns are not uncommon, but they’re not typical military arms except for unusual circumstances. Mostly because of their very short range compared to even an assault rifle or other intermediate cartridge longarm. Even a pistol could outrange a shotgun loaded with anything besides slugs. Close-contact fighting like trench sweeping is the classic military shotgun use case. Air defense is a new one. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3242 "2023-03-27T14:15:17Z")
The Germans complained about the Americans using pump shotguns in trench warfare. They were using flame throwers. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3243 "2023-03-27T14:16:54Z")
Shotguns are still a better weapon than [shovels](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-shovels-russia-troops-ukraine-b2294545.html). As far as “innovative” weapons go, might the Russians dig deep into the history of Soviet warfare and once again train booby-trapped dogs to blow up tanks? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3244 "2023-03-27T14:44:23Z")
That didn’t work because they fed the dogs from their tanks, and the dogs did not want to lose their meal ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3245 "2023-03-27T17:21:41Z")
[Ukraine counts heavy cost of Russian attacks on hydropower plants | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-counts-heavy-cost-russian-attacks-hydropower-plants-2023-03-27/) Russia has been attacking Ukraine’s power grid for months now. This is forcing Ukraine to redesign their electrical systems with protection and survivability as top priorities, and constructing things underground when possible. This, however, is really expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3246 "2023-03-27T17:23:13Z")
Expensive, but worth it even under normal life. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3247 "2023-03-27T17:29:16Z")
I suppose that’s a bit of a silver lining. Kinda like how Japan had to completely rebuild their industrial base following WW2. Having to rebuild from the ground up did partly account for their explosive economic growth in the 40 years or so to follow. They had all new factories, equipment, and more efficient operations for a time. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3248 "2023-03-27T17:33:48Z")
Do they still have power at 60 Hz in some areas and 50 Hz in others? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3249 "2023-03-27T17:36:21Z")
Yes, you can’t change that sort of thing easily. It’s more of an east/west divide, though. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3250 "2023-03-27T17:41:45Z")
And seeing as how hundreds of billions is going to be spent in rebuilding Ukrainian infrastructure after the war, maybe they should also use the opportunity to change their existing Russian 1524 mm rail gauge to European standard 1435 mm ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3251 "2023-03-27T17:48:29Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > their explosive economic growth in the 40 years or so to follow. I recall my father, a radio engineer, cursing about the inferior quality if their electronic parts in the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3252 "2023-03-27T18:01:08Z")
Immediately after the war it seems like much of what we saw in the US from Japan was cheap toys and trinkets. But they climbed the value chain very fast. By the 80s they were setting the standards in consumer electronics. Bringing it back on topic, I wonder how the Ukrainian arms industry will be regarded after the war? They’ve proven themselves to be quite resourceful and innovative. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3253 "2023-03-27T18:22:07Z")
Shit just got real. Russia will soon face a counter offensive supported by 40 Marder Infantry fighting vehicles, 14 UK Challenger 2 and 18 Leopard 2 tanks. That should finally give Ukrainian forces a chance to significantly push Russian forces out of Eastern Ukraine. Guardian blog > [@](#): > > **The 18 Leopard 2 battle tanks promised by Germany to support Ukraine have been handed over at the Ukrainian border,** according to a report.[About 40 Marder infantry fighting vehicles](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/mar/27/russia-ukraine-war-live-nato-criticises-putin-for-dangerous-nuclear-rhetoric-donbas-town-of-avdiivka-post-apocalyptic?page=with:block-6421a5938f0893440cca24e1#block-6421a5938f0893440cca24e1) have also reached Ukraine, Der Spiegel reported, citing unnamed sources. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3254 "2023-03-27T18:35:03Z")
Putin may be tempted to shoot one of his tactical nukes at them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=159) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=161)