# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 188
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3829 "2023-05-04T22:33:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Oddly worded headline. Is it a Russian assault against Kherson or a Ukrainian assault against Russian forces? The article implies a Ukrainian counter assault. From the standpoint of civilians attempting to simply survive there may not be much difference on the ground. Or in the basement. Or wherever they attempt to hide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3830 "2023-05-04T22:44:53Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I know Putin is a bad man and all, but, just maybe, he would prefer not to murder lots of Russian civilians, at least in Russia. I wouldn’t bet on that. Some would say deadly apartment bombings are right in Putin’s wheelhouse. [Wiki article,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings) in particular, [this section.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Russian_apartment_bombings#Russian_government_involvement_theory) ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3831 "2023-05-04T22:54:01Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Has anybody suggested rebellious teenagers yet? They would come under the category of anti-Putin dissidents. > [@SunUp](#): > > To be fair, we’re only seeing the videos where the drones don’t get knocked out of the air before delivering their payload. There may well have been plenty of knockdowns whose videos end up getting stored in /dev/null on the Ukrainian propaganda cloud servers. Here’s something I posted over a month ago: > [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3292): > > The remains of a wood/foam drone in Ukrainian colors and with ‘Glory to Ukraine’ emblazoned on it was reportedly found near Moscow: I’ve read of other cases too. > [@Broomstick](#): > > …there is still the possibility of these drones having been launched IN Moscow, perhaps quite near the Kremlin, which would avoid at least some of the air defenses around the city. Yes, that’s possible. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > And I don’t understand the idea that a dramatic win makes you weak. The Kremlin was saved! The first drone appeared to hit its target - the top of the dome near the flag - and partially set alight the roof. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3832 "2023-05-04T23:31:51Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > ’m not sure why that would be the case. If it WAS a false flag, why wouldn’t Russia direct the attack to a place they knew they had surveillance on and could get footage? And if it just happened to be a passerby with a cellphone camera, why would that be hard to believe in the center of Russia’s most photographed epicenters, regardless of time? Why wouldn’t a confederate of whomever was controlling the drone be ready to film it? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3833 "2023-05-04T23:51:02Z")
Re the drone shoot-down, Russian news coverage on day two is less intense than I expected – it is no longer the top story. But it is still being milked. This is from a popular news channel web site, google-translated: [The West called the drone attack on the Kremlin “strange” and "mysterious](https://smotrim.ru/article/3338031?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=main2-news&utm_campaign=main2-news6) > [@](#): > > Russian intelligence agencies are aware of Kyiv’s involvement in the drone attack on the Kremlin, as well as the fact that decisions on such attacks are made in Washington. “The attempts by the Ukrainian and American authorities to deny their connection with the attack look ridiculous,” presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov said. Moscow warns Washington of the danger of direct involvement in the conflict. > > As for her answer, the options may be very different, but Russia will act deliberately, balancedly and in accordance with its own interests. Pravda is highlighting a supposed prediction’s of Zelensky demise: [Political expert Jaralla: Zelensky, who left Ukraine, fearfully awaits Putin’s reaction to the strike on the Kremlin](https://military.pravda.ru/news/1830913-vladimir_zelenskii/) > [@](#): > > According to him, there are two scenarios for Zelensky’s imminent resignation. He is not able to fulfill the tasks of the “masters”, because he does not have the necessary qualities, and Kyiv’s resources are extremely limited, the interlocutor of the publication emphasized. > > “The first scenario is a” dead hero". Having played his role, he still has to die under strange circumstances and become a scarecrow. The second option is emigration, in which Zelensky will begin to attend various events and tell what a wonderful president he was," the expert said. > > He added that Zelensky is scared now. Here is the lead sentence of an Investia article: [Relations between Russia and the United States are on the verge of an open armed conflict.](https://iz.ru/1508569/2023-05-05/moskva-nazvala-otnosheniia-rf-i-ssha-stoiashchimi-na-grani-otkrytogo-vooruzhennogo-konflikta) This reminds me of the Communism-era quip that there’s no Pravda (in English, Truth) in Investia (News), and no Investia in Pravda. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3834 "2023-05-05T01:15:32Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Oddly worded headline. Is it a Russian assault against Kherson or a Ukrainian assault against Russian forces? I took it as a renewed Russian missile/shelling assault against Kherson, rather than a ground attack. That said, if the Russians had any smarts (and capacity) they ought to be launching spoiling attacks before the main Ukrainian attack goes in, wherever that may be. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3835 "2023-05-05T12:22:50Z")
Prigozhin announces a date of May 10th for Wagner forces to withdraw from Bakhmut. He cites ammunition shortage as the reason. > **[Russia's Prigozhin says Wagner fighters will quit Bakhmut to 'lick our wounds'](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-chief-prigozhin-says-his-forces-will-leave-bakhmut-next-week-2023-05-05/)** > > Yevgeny Prigozhin, leader of Russia's Wagner Group mercenary force, said in a sudden and dramatic announcement on Friday that his forces would pull out of the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut that they have been trying in vain to capture since last summer. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3836 "2023-05-05T13:14:05Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Why wouldn’t a confederate of whomever was controlling the drone be ready to film it? That’s certainly possible as well. I’m just saying that the answer to “what are the odds a by-stander happened to see this happen?!” is “probably as close to 100% as possible”. It being filmed just is not evidence for or against it being a false flag, an enemy attack, a Russian dissident group, a teenager with easy access to fireworks, or any other scenario. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3837 "2023-05-05T14:28:59Z")
I have to admit they’re endured incredible losses. Forcing troops to charge into enemy fire is rare these days. The cost in lives is unimaginable. > [@](#): > > Prigozhin announces a date of May 10th for Wagner forces to withdraw from Bakhmut. He cites ammunition shortage as the reason. Strong words from Yevgeny Prigozhin. He better avoid standing near any windows. Link [Wagner chief rages at Russia’s generals and threatens Bakhmut pullout | Russia | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/05/wagner-chief-yevgeny-prigozhin-rages-at-russia-generals-and-threatens-bakhmut-pullout) > [@](#): > > Standing in a field littered with corpses, the Russian mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin has recorded an expletive-ridden video personally blaming Russia’s top defence chiefs for losses suffered by fighters in [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine). > > In a separate message, Prigozhin also said Wagner troops would leave the besieged eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut next week. > > “These are Wagner lads who died today. The blood is still fresh,” Prigozhin says in an extraordinary clip, pointing to roughly three dozen bodies that he says are those of the Wagner fighters. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3838 "2023-05-05T14:35:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > > Prigozhin announces a date of May 10th for Wagner forces to withdraw from Bakhmut. He cites ammunition shortage as the reason Hey, I just found some footage of [Wagner soldiers on the front lines just now!](https://youtu.be/RDqx0gfYi-o?t=39) ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3839 "2023-05-05T14:43:47Z")
Ukraine has been making a concerted effort to inflict disproportionate losses on Russia’s most capable forces. Around Bakhmut that was Wagner PMC. Looks like they’ve succeeded. Prigozhin is whining about how the MoD has been depriving them of ammunition, but it looks like Ukraine has been doing its darndest to help things along [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-s-forces-destroy-wagner-ammunition-storage-points-on-bakhmut-front-deputy-defence-minister/ar-AA1aMZgh?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=ce6f1748bd18402db3c17599c178ae54&ei=11](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-s-forces-destroy-wagner-ammunition-storage-points-on-bakhmut-front-deputy-defence-minister/ar-AA1aMZgh?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=ce6f1748bd18402db3c17599c178ae54&ei=11) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3840 "2023-05-05T14:44:47Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Hey, I just found some footage of [Wagner soldiers on the front lines just now!](https://youtu.be/RDqx0gfYi-o?t=39) My guess is he’s saying it for propaganda purposes as a way of hedging. If the Ukrainian offensive goes towards Zaporazhia or some other place, he can claim that they got the ammo they needed so they aren’t going to withdraw / retreat after all. On the other hand if the offensive is towards Bakhmut, he can claim he wasn’t retreating due to cowardice in the face of a superior opponent, but rather being forced to withdraw due to lack of support. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3841 "2023-05-05T15:32:53Z")
I would beleive nothing that comes out of Russia at this point. I would suspect it is all misinformation designed to hopefully confuse the upcoming Ukrainian offensive. The Wagnor group could just as easily be repositioning themselves for an offensive somewhere else while regular army troops come in to fill there place and hold the line. You can tell that they are lying because their lips are moving. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3842 "2023-05-05T18:10:29Z")
Concerning the recent Kremlin drone attack, I thought Anders Nielsen’s recent 5-minute video ‘How to spot a Russian false flag operation’ made good arguments against it being a false flag operation. [How to spot a Russian false flag operation - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jabKKr3pstU) In brief, the video quality of the attack is too good, and what you see is too ambiguous. Also, when Russians have pulled false flag attacks before they’ve supported it with lots of reporting and analysis from multiple state controlled media outlets, whereas, the state media in this case seems to have simply acknowledged the event and is quickly moving on. They’re treating the event the way they typically treat bad news. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3843 "2023-05-05T20:08:41Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Ukraine has been making a concerted effort to inflict disproportionate losses on Russia’s most capable forces. Around Bakhmut that was Wagner PMC. Weird that the Elite Russian troops are mercs. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3844 "2023-05-05T20:11:14Z")
Putin planned the invasion for a long time. He didn’t just become irrational and act impulsively Link [We knew in 2011 Putin would attack Ukraine, says Bill Clinton | Vladimir Putin | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/05/we-knew-putin-would-attack-ukraine-back-in-2011-says-bill-clinton) > [@](#): > > “Putin told me in 2011, three years before he took Crimea, that he did not agree with the agreement I made with Boris Yeltsin, that they would respect Ukraine’s territory if they gave up their nuclear weapons,” Clinton said on Thursday at a public discussion at [92nd Street Y](https://www.92ny.org/archives/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-and-david-rubenstein-m5zbnwfj71), a Jewish cultural and community centre in New York. > > “Putin said to me: ‘… I know Boris agreed to go along with you and John Major and Nato, but he never got it through the Duma [Russian parliament]. We have our extreme nationalists too. I don’t agree with it and I do not support it and I’m not bound by it.’ > > “I knew from that day forward, it was just a matter of time,” the former president said of Putin launching an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3845 "2023-05-05T20:13:03Z")
He said ‘capable’, not ‘elite’. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3846 "2023-05-05T20:25:24Z")
In this theater, any Russian formation showing the slightest hint of competence is hugely elite, relatively speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3847 "2023-05-05T20:43:31Z")
I’m not even sure I’d classify the Wagner formations as competent. The success they have achieved, and they have been more successful than most regular army formations, has been at the expense of extreme indifference to casualties in their prisoner recruits, to the point of shooting people who retreat, etc. Is that competence? It has achieved some slight forward progress, at horrific costs, but requires stupid levels of artillery to get even those results, which is of course the source of Prigozhin’s recent ranting. If you can make forward progress at ruinous cost, that makes you capable in a certain sense, but if the cost is greater than the gains made then it’s not really competent. “Another such victory over the Romans and we shall be utterly ruined.” - Pyrrhus of Epirus, 279BC ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/3848 "2023-05-05T21:49:31Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Is that competence? Stalinesque competence. “Quantity has a quality all its own.” AKA Brute force and stupidity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=187) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=189)