# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/361 "2022-11-08T14:47:17Z")
There was a link in Part 1 from that seemed to show the dragon’s teeth simply being pushed out the back of a truck. > Some good photos of what properly installed ones look like: > [@Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-1/960037/9562): > > Yeah, WWII ones look like they’re firmly secured to the ground. [[image] ](https://historylink101.com/ww2_color/WorldWarIIFortifications/images/PICT0426.jpg)[[image] ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dl85BlqWsAE3H1E.jpg)[[image] ](https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/42/2d/9b/422d9b2b1f943e80fed03f2be2e9b640.jpg) The text accompanying the video says: We can we probably assume that the Russians aren’t planning on launching any offensives from here any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/362 "2022-11-08T14:55:20Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Yep, they’re the ones fighting and dying, so they should be the only ones who decide when they begin negotiations. So far, they’ve been pretty clear about returning to the pre-2014 borders as a starting point, and I’m not inclined to argue with them. I’m not going to argue with them, I’ll just point out that it’s easy to talk tough, but somewhat harder to actually be tough. Once they get a sense of how hard taking back Crimea may actually be, they may decide to take a more pragmatic stand. Dress it up as “We chose to spare the fine people of Crimea further suffering because of Putin’s war”, all the while knowing they’re really just buying time to prepare for the next war. Barring an utter collapse of Russia, or Putin dying somehow, This is the end result I’d bet on, even if I’d much rather Russia just get fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/363 "2022-11-08T15:10:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Can they be cleared with a Dozer blade? I’ve seen house lots with small trees cleared with a Bobcat. That’s much smaller than a Dozer. > > Or maybe drag out the Teethe with chains on a dozer or tank? Well, if you think about it, they had to be installed, right? Unless you’re casting them in place by pouring concrete, the machines that place them should be able to remove them. The tricky bit is doing that under fire. Were I building such defenses, I’d have the entire line mapped out, so that I could hit any part of it with artillery fire. When you see where the enemy plans to break through, you just tell your guys, “Put fire on Sections A, E and J of the line.” The point isn’t to stop the tanks with the barrier, it’s to force them into a choke point, where concentrated fire can destroy a lot of the tanks with less effort. Of course, this requires competence at every stage of the process, which the Russians almost certainly can’t demonstrate. Proper placement, proper recording of that placement, proper sighting of the guns, proper forward observing to spot the attacks, proper communications to target the choke points, proper logistics to have enough guns and enough ammunition to be able to put enough fire on the choke points to destroy the enemy. A failure in any stage of that reduces the effectiveness enormously. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/364 "2022-11-08T15:27:48Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Aren’t most of the trains Ukraine relies on to transport their troops and materiel electric? I don’t think the tracks are electrified. Rather the trains run on diesel, which then powers the electric motor on the engine. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/365 "2022-11-08T15:35:02Z")
If true, that would be great news. It’s a critical point, though. Are most Ukrainian trains electric powered or diesel? I did find an article from a week ago that indicated 80% of Ukraine’s trains were still running on schedule despite the power outages. [(46) 80% of trains running as scheduled despite attacks on infrastructure, Ukrainian Railways says (cnn.com)](https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-10-31-22/h_24f3a0fe03e55bd4607f9f86f7ac709f) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/366 "2022-11-08T15:42:48Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > One thing to consider, though, is that where maintenance is not actually performed—perhaps due to a lack of spare parts or basic consumables—generators can end up out of action indefinitely. I get that a properly supplied/maintained back-up power generation scheme can carry the load for long periods of time. What we cannot know, however, is just how well provisioned with necessary stockpiles of consumables (lube oil, filters, etc) Ukraine is. All true. Emergency power generation would definitely not be a dump-and-forget initiative in Ukraine. Ongoing supply and support would be required. ---
**Author:** ![Kedikat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kedikat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kedikat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/367 "2022-11-08T15:43:15Z")
Sorry wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/368 "2022-11-08T15:51:25Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I don’t think the tracks are electrified. Rather the trains run on diesel, which then powers the electric motor on the engine. According to Wikipedia, 44% of Ukraine’s railways are electrified. The good news is that it may be possible to run diesel-powered locomotives on the same tracks, provided there’s adequate overhead clearance to the catenaries. The other bit of good news is that if only 44% of their railways are electrified, then there are probably a good number of diesel-powered locomotives that could be re-routed to serve on electrified railways if necessary. > **[Ukrainian Railways | Infrastructure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Railways#Infrastructure)** > > Ukrzaliznytsia has several repair factories capable of producing locomotives and railcars. In addition there is a separate Kryukiv Railcar Engineering Factory and Dnieper Railcar Engineering that also produce railroad rolling stock for Ukrzaliznytsia and other companies for public transportation. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/369 "2022-11-08T15:53:57Z")
They also have some steam locomotives up and running. Saw one video of an engine crossing a bridge; another video of a crew making scrambled eggs on a shovel at the edge of the fire box. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/370 "2022-11-08T15:54:16Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > One thing I don’t hear talking heads discussing are the military ramifications for taking out their power grid. As in, won’t this disrupt and complicate Ukrainian communications? Some types of communications yes. But as long as Starlink stays up and running not so much - which then becomes a question of whether or not Elon Musk is going to screw things up for the Ukrainians or not. > [@Cardigan](#): > > What about the rail networks? Aren’t most of the trains Ukraine relies on to transport their troops and materiel electric? Freight trains are, so far as I know, diesel-electric. That is, a diesel motor generates electricity for the train. Some of the passenger trains may be all electric, pulling power off a third rail or pantograph/overhead line but I really don’t know. In my area we have the “South Shore Railroad” which runs passenger service with all-electric trains powered by overhead line, but those exact same rails have no problem running diesel-electric freight trains, too. The rails don’t care how the trains that run over them are powered. The limitations are what power sources you have, and what trains are equipped to run on those power sources. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/371 "2022-11-08T16:02:10Z")
> > ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/372 "2022-11-08T16:16:56Z")
That’s very resourceful, very cool, and very bad ass. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/373 "2022-11-08T17:21:26Z")
Speaking of trains… > **[A Russian convoy stole an amusement park train from Ukraine and drove it out...](https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/russian-convoy-stole-amusement-park-044706183.html)** > > A video posted by Anton Gerashchenko shows a kid's choo-choo train amid a convoy of vehicles, which Gerashchenko said was driven by Russians. Not verified but if true, very funny. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/374 "2022-11-08T17:50:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Not verified but if true, very funny. Can’t really blame them if it’s true. If I were Russian, I’d hop on anything that goes faster than I can walk. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/375 "2022-11-08T17:55:35Z")
But, can it? Based on the video, I have doubts. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/376 "2022-11-08T18:18:32Z")
You have to take into account that the circus train may be loaded with homicidal clowns. Blow it up and you could have hundreds of clowns running around the countryside randomly murdering people. No one wants to deal with that, clowns are notoriously hard to kill. Safer to just let them get back to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/377 "2022-11-08T18:35:44Z")
Then you aim the shells at the passenger car rather than the engine. I mean, they are packed in there so tight, it should be easy as pie-in-the-face to get them all in one shot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/378 "2022-11-08T19:32:42Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I’m not going to argue with them, I’ll just point out that it’s easy to talk tough, but somewhat harder to actually be tough. Once they get a sense of how hard taking back Crimea may actually be, they may decide to take a more pragmatic stand. Of course Ukraine will start by demanding Crimea back. They have to bargain at the table. If Ukraine manages to take back the rest of it’s territory, maybe Russia will want to talk peace. Then each side will ask for concessions. Mind you, Putin accidentally falling out a high window would simplify things a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/379 "2022-11-08T19:37:19Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > another video of a crew making scrambled eggs on a shovel at the edge of the fire box Now that’s old school! I saw a cooking show once where the guy traveled around Africa cooking in various locations, and this was one thing he did. It started with an extreme close-up of the “pan”, so you couldn’t tell what he was doing until they panned out an you saw he was in a locomotive. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/380 "2022-11-08T19:48:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The rails don’t care how the trains that run over them are powered. The limitations are what power sources you have, and what trains are equipped to run on those power sources. True. I don’t know European standards, much less Ukraine’s, but in the US the typical locomotive height, electric or diesel-electric, is 16 feet and the wire is 18 feet. In fact, the maintenance trans in electrified territory are diesels so the overhead power can be off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=20)