# Russia invades Ukraine {2022-02-24} (Part 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 29, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972 "2022-10-29T17:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/461 "2022-11-10T23:37:42Z")
“freeze line”? (Not at all expert on military-related terminology) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/462 "2022-11-10T23:38:52Z")
Maybe it’s meant literally, as in the river might freeze over the winter and allow crossing on foot? Just my WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/463 "2022-11-10T23:42:38Z")
even worse … from the information from typical local channelss, there is a mix of russian troops that: - have already run (and are now highly concentrated at the few crossing points getting shelled very hard) - ones that are withdrawing (those will be panicking heavily) - troops that have NO knowledge of the withdrawing orders - which are still fighting (mind you, those do not seem to be the SS-Totenkopf hard-core troops, but regular troops w/out comunications doing their day-to-day duties) oh boy… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/464 "2022-11-10T23:44:13Z")
The general consensus has been that Russia is attempting to achieve a stalemate in positions that will hold through the winter while offensive operations are difficult. I think “freeze line” is intended to reflect that concept, i.e. the Russian plan was to withdraw from the city, harden a defensive position along the river, and then settle in for a few months of rest and resupply. If these rumors are accurate, that plan has fallen apart. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/465 "2022-11-10T23:48:05Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > “freeze line”? (Not at all expert on military-related terminology) I assumed it meant a location where the fighting freezes, so the new stabilized front line, or potential new de facto border between Russia and Ukraine when the war becomes a “frozen conflict”. The Russians couldn’t hold on to to Kherson, north of the Dneiper River, and now they’re at risk of losing territory to the south of it, is how I understood it. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2022, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/466 "2022-11-10T23:51:31Z")
Thanks. That does make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/467 "2022-11-11T00:06:59Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Maybe it’s meant literally, as in the river might freeze over the winter and allow crossing on foot? Just my WAG. I think it’s too far south and too big for freeze-over. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/468 "2022-11-11T00:18:33Z")
I hope the Russian commanders realize they may have an opportunity to retake Kherson City in the Spring. It wouldn’t be in their interest now to flatten the city with artillery and missiles. Will they think it through? What kind of prize was Mariupol? There’s almost nothing left. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/469 "2022-11-11T01:24:52Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Sadly, it seems that even the closest part of Ukraine outside Crimea is still around 100 miles from the bridge, and I don’t know of anything they have at the moment that can hit that far. They may have something that can, but it doesn’t seem to be officially known at this point. So if they take out that bridge, it looks like it’s going to be through an unconventional means. They’ve already attacked the bridge. By “unconventional” means, sure. But then, they’re beating what was once thought to be the second-most-powerful military in the world. Everything about this war is unconventional. > [@aceplace57](#): > > I hope the Russian commanders realize they may have an opportunity to retake Kherson City in the Spring. > > It wouldn’t be in their interest now to flatten the city with artillery and missiles. This war stopped being about what was in Russia’s interests a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/470 "2022-11-11T01:36:17Z")
Yeah, I realize it’s almost a certainty the Russians have something very destructive planned for Kherson City. They made a effort to relocate civilians for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/471 "2022-11-11T01:45:42Z")
I’ve seen that no “green corridor” was requested by Russia in order to evacuate troops from Kherson. Even if it was, why would Ukraine agree to such a thing? You have an invading force on the run with an opportunity to inflict heavy damage. Russia has shown complete disdain for Ukrainian lives. It seems that they are about to reap what was sown. War is brutal and Ukraine should show no mercy to troops that are doing anything other than surrendering. Also, I read of an account where a Ukrainian commander reached such an agreement when surrounded by Russians in 2014. The Russian commander promptly reneged and many Ukrainians were killed. Paybacks are a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/472 "2022-11-11T02:15:36Z")
Reminds me of the retreat from Kuwait City. The Iraqis had commited horrific crimes against the population and looted heavily. Payback came on the highway back to Iraq. A lot of equipment and soldiers were wiped out. Pretty much broke the Iraq army. They were never the same. Don’t know if Ukraine can inflict as much damage against the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/473 "2022-11-11T02:18:00Z")
Kherson is only on the right bank of the Dnieper, correct? What is on the opposite side? farmland? smaller towns? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/474 "2022-11-11T02:58:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What is on the opposite side? farmland? smaller towns? More or less. The historically significant town of [Oleshky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleshky) sits roughly opposite Kherson, but a little farther back from the river proper behind a band of estuarine marsh and a tributary. There are scattered other little settlements, farmland and a lot of steppe/sand. Total population of the old Oleshky Raion was ~70,000 pre-refugee, so a pretty lightly settled area. Like most of the Kherson oblast, really. [Google map](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tendrivs%CA%B9ka+Kosa/@46.477283,32.5253596,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x40c6e5ade7818f89:0x9ad9855ece9c87b2!8m2!3d46.241389!4d31.630833) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/475 "2022-11-11T03:07:19Z")
I’m confused. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Kherson is only on the right bank of the Dnieper, correct? It looks to me like Kherson is on the left bank, and Oleshky is on the right. But I use the convention that it’s relative to North. https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=46.6201178,32.6151743&z=13&output=embed&dg=ntvb ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/476 "2022-11-11T03:16:05Z")
I understand, from a previous posting some time ago on this thread, that left and right are always determined by the direction of current flow, not compass direction. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/477 "2022-11-11T03:24:32Z")
To a geographer, it’s like port and starboard is to a mariner. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Banks_left_and_right_V2.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Banks_left_and_right_V2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/478 "2022-11-11T03:28:14Z")
I learnt it in Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/479 "2022-11-11T03:29:40Z")
That’s the second new thing I learned today. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972/480 "2022-11-11T04:11:01Z")
Ah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense. I never really thought about it, not having to talk about “left banks” and “right banks” except for the famous Parisian left bank, but how else would a relative term like “left” or “right” work without reference to something, and flow of river makes the most sense in this context. “East” and “west” doesn’t really make sense, and, besides, wouldn’t you just say “east bank” and “west bank”. Light bulb moment for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/russia-invades-ukraine-2022-02-24-part-2/973972.md?page=25)